The end of NDSU domination

[JackJD]

In the GDT, playoff edition, I took issue with some posters who complained about being sick of moral victories. My issue was: I didn't read any posters claim to be happy about the outcome of Saturday's playoff game. I commented that I think we are at the end of NDSU domination. Here's my analysis, set out in several parts. In the end, I conclude that with our support continuing to improve as it has in the past several years, we are now putting together consistently good teams that reach the playoffs and thereby put us in position to compete for a national title. (Note: the first four posts in this thread were slapped together using MSWord and then cut and pasted into this thread...that process results in some formatting problems -- typically spacing between words can get messed up.)

To know the direction we're headed, we have to know our past. Here's some background.

SDSU first played NDSU in football in 1903.NDSU won that meeting with the most lopsided victory in the series, 85-0. The schools have now played 103 football games including SDSU’s last-minute loss to the Bison, 27-24, December 6, 2014. The SDSU win-loss-tie record in the series stands at 40-58-5.

As stated below, 1963 is a particularly important year for NDSU and SDSU: NDSU’s football fortunes soared while SDSU’s started a decline from a consistently good program to one that bounced around from mediocrity to fair to once-in-a-while okay for many years.

Prior to 1963, the series record showed SDSU had 30 wins over NDSU, compared to NDSU’s 14 wins over SDSU. There were five ties. Breaking down the pre-1963 records by decades (except for the last grouping, 1959-62), the statistics show SDSU’s always had the upper hand over NDSU. (The teams didnot play each year in the early days.) SDSU v NDSU prior to 1963:
1903 – 1909, SDSU was 1-2.
1910 - 1919, SDSU 5-0-1.
1920 - 1929, SDSU 7-1-2.
1930 - 1939, SDSU 5-5.
1940 - 1949, SDSU 5-2.
1950 - 1959, SDSU 5-4-1.
1959 - 1962, SDSU 2-0-1.

Before 1964, SDSU was one of the most successful programs in the North Central Conference as demonstrated by its championship titles.The NCC started in 1922. From 1922 through 1963, SDSU won 14 NCCFootball Titles (listed by SDSU Coach and years):
Jack West, 1919-1927:Three NCC Titles (1922, ’24 & ’26)
Cy Kasper, 1928-1933:One NCC Title (1933)
Jack Barnes, 1938-1940: One NCC Title (1939)
Ralph Ginn, 1947-1968:Nine NCC Titles (1949, ’50, ’53, ’54, ’55, ’57, ’61, ’62, ’63).

In that same period, 1922--63, NDSU won three NCC football titles: 1925, ’32 and 1935.

So what happened in 1963?

[JackJD]

Re: The end of NDSU domination

1963: NDSU COMMITS TO CHAMPIONSHIP FOOTBALL

The football fortunes of NDSU dramatically changed when Darrell Mudra was hired as the head coach for the 1963 season. It may be argued, based on win/loss records, that SDSU’s standing as a strong football school started a decline which coincided with a vitalization of NDSU football (I almost used the word “revitalization”but Bison football was generally weak prior to 1963, especially when measured against Bison success post-1963).

For facilities, SDSU had opened Coughlin Alumni Stadium September 22, 1962. It was a modern, 10,000 seat stadium.NDSU was playing in Dacotah Field, a facility constructed in 1910 but renovated and expanded to eventually hold 13,000 fans. Initially (1963) facilities had nothing to do with either program’s success. But, as time passed, it was clear NDSU was investing more dollars in support of its football program – much more than SDSU was investing. NDSU clearly had the upper hand in program strength and the series record quickly went the other direction. When the City of Fargo constructed the FargoDome, completed in late 1992, there was a significant distance between NDSU’s and SDSU’s football facilities and amenities. The FargoDome just added more recruiting “wow”to show top recruits.

The 1962 version of the Bison was a disaster: 0-10. Coach Bob Danielson’s tenure ended that year, a six-year career record of 13-39-2. When Murdra was hired for the 1963 season, NDSU’s administration and its athletic supporters were committed to raise the stature of Bison football. Mudra came from Adams State in Colorado where his four-year record was 32-4-1. The 1963 NDSU season ended 3-5 but Mudra was busy starting the foundation for Bison success in football.

Mudra coached the Bison from 1963 through the 1965 season and in those three years, his record was 24-6. His teams were NCC champs in 1964 (10-1) and 1965 (11-0). (See the Wikipediaentry on Mudra.)

[JackJD]

Re: The end of NDSU domination

1963 and after: What was happening at SDSU?

From 1963 through yesterday, SDSU’s record vs NDSU was10-44. Here’s the breakdown by decade:
1963 through 1969:1-6 – (the only win was 1963)
1970-1979: 2-8
1980-1989: 0-10
1990-1999: 2-8
2000-2009: 5-5
2010 – present:0-7-- includes playoff losses in 2012 and 2014.

It was noted earlier that SDSU’s Coach Ginn won nine NCC titles, the last in 1963. Ginn’s career record was 113-89-9 but the years 1964 through 1968 did a lot of damage – in those final five season, his Jackrabbits were 14-35-1:
1964:2-8
1965:1-8-1
1966: 3-7
1967: 4-6
1968: 4-6.
Coach Ginn’s record over NDSU was 11-4-2 through 1963. Starting 1964, Coach Ginn’s record against the Bison was 0-5.

Coach Ginn was followed by Dave Kragthorpe in 1969, with an overall record of 3-7, 0-1 v NDSU. Dean Pryor following in 1970 and 1971 with season records of 2-8 and 3-7, with one loss and one win against NDSU. John Gregory took the reins in 1972 and stayed through 1981, having a 10-year record of 55-50. Gregory’s teams were competitive and included the 1979 team that qualified for the Division II playoffs. Against NDSU, Gregory’s Jacks were 1-9. Gregory was followed by Wayne Haensel, 1982 through 1990, 45-52 overall, 0-9 against NDSU. Mike Daly was named head coach in 1991 and in his six years, earned a very respectable 41-23 record but his series record with the Bison was 1-5.

John Stiegelmeier took over in 1997.

[JackJD]

Re: The end of NDSU domination

The Stiegelmeier Era

Stig was named head coach in 1997. His 18-year record is 120 wins, 86 losses. Against NDSU, Stig is 6-14. Stig has won more games against NDSU than his three predecessors combined (total of 2 wins, 23 losses). Stig’s teams have been stronger in the D-I era than they were in the DII era. SDSU has been giving better support to the program, funding better facilities and additional coaches.

NDSU jumped from no better than poor to mediocre pre-1964, to excellence starting in 1964. In my view, SDSU has had a steady climb to excellence under coach Stig, particularly in the DI era (starting ’04). The team made the playoffs for the first time in 2009 with an 8-4 record. After losing seasons in 2010 and ’11, both 5-6, the team has put together seasons of: 9-4 and second round of the playoffs in 2012; 9-5 and second round of the playoffs in 2013; and 9-5 and second round of the playoffs in 2014.

And then consider the investment in facilities. First the Dykhouse Student Center followed by the SJAC indoor practice facility which opened this past fall. Next season we will have a new stadium half completed and by 2016, the 20,000 seat stadium will be completed. While it's hard to imagine replacing the seniors we lose this year, we continue to recruit top athletes (and students) and new stars will emerge.

Improvements in facilities is like kids playing leap-frog. In 1992, NDSU really picked up a “wow” factor with the FargoDome. Today, the Dome while still a nice facility (personally, I can't stand indoor football), needs updating. By 2016, SDSU will have the newest facility in the MVFC – some will argue but no one will convince me otherwise: it will be the best in the conference. With the Dykhouse Center and the SJAC, we have the “wow”factor. The stadium will double it.

SDSU has made the commitment to football excellence. By the time the football stadium opens for the 2016 season, we will have spent $100 million on athletic facilities which directly benefit the football program.

Saturday’s loss at NDSU was particularly upsetting because we know we were as good as the Bison in that game. We expect to make the playoffs and therefore be in position to compete for a national title. In my opinion, NDSU is no longer going to be dominant in football compared to SDSU.

[JackJD]

Re: The end of NDSU domination

Anyone notice that this message board spends no time on issues like the following:
do we need a new coach?
who's going to be the new coach?
why are our athletes in trouble?
how come none of our athletes made all-conference?
how come none of our athletes made all-conference academic?
have there been any pro scouts hanging around this year?

A question asked many times this season: Are we going to make the playoffs?

A question we're now asking: What's is going to take to win a national title?

I look at our MVFC-mates' fan message boards. They're not all talking about the same topics we discuss.

[Grizzled_Jack]

Re: The end of NDSU domination

I think SDSU took a dive in 1964, because Ralph Ginn couldn't adjust to platoon football. Maybe it was a recruiting thing, but when players had to go both ways he was much more successful. By 1967, when I graduated, he seemed clueless. Game passed him by.

[Nidaros]

Re: The end of NDSU domination

I think SDSU took a dive in 1964, because Ralph Ginn couldn't adjust to platoon football. Maybe it was a recruiting thing, but when players had to go both ways he was much more successful. By 1967, when I graduated, he seemed clueless. Game passed him by.

I would not go as far to say that Ralph was clueless, just tired and younger coaches were getting the best of him. I would agree, he did not adjust to platoon football. His two immediate successors were probably over qualified for the job at SDSU, opportunities elsewhere could not keep them in place. I believe Kraigthorpe went to brand new spanking Weber State and ended up at Oregon State. Dean Pryor got an offer and a promise of a new stadium at Arkansas State, in Jonesboro and stayed there to become their AD. I think the non ability to match fund raising of the Teammakers to the north really put us in a bind. Not mentioned by JD, is something I recall reading in a Bison program many years ago, and that was the prior president to the one that took over in 1963 did not believe in his athletic department begging for donations from downtown merchants, and if this did not help Ralph Ginn win NCC championships then I don't know what else did. Also UND was winning all the recruiting wars in North Dakota prior to 1963. UND was a contender for the NCC during those years.

One other old story and its documented in a thesis written by Jim Vacura, a very football player at SDSU in the mid 1950's and his master thesis was the history of football at SDSU, a copy is available at Briggs library. It used to be on the second floor. One of the forgotten stories that Jim uncovered was that after Jack West started to dominate the NCC, UND came down to Brookings and made a offer of $3000 more a year. Jack did not really want to leave Brookings and asked the business men of Brookings to match his offer and he would stay. Apparently they did not match the offer, and Jack West headed north to Grand Forks. All you have to do is look at who won the NCC in the 1930's and you get the picture of that impact in not matching West's offer. UND won several NCC titles. Some of West successors were very good coaches in their time, but not as good as West in my opinion.

[scbison]

Re: The end of NDSU domination

I will stick with my Dakota 2 theory. I have always believed there is enough talent in the Dakotas and leftover MN, WI, IA etc, for 2 high caliber teams and 2 lower end teams. 1 is usually the Alpha Dog, while the other is a close but distinct 2nd. Since 1980,

1980-1992 - 1 - NDSU 2 -USD
1993-2003 - 1 - UND 2 - NDSU
2004 - 2007 1- NDSU 2- UND & SDSU
2008 -2009 1- SDSU 2 - a tie for bad teams
2010 - present 1 NDSU 2 SDSU

I believe SDSU benefitted the most from going D1 before UND as that knocked UND off their perch and they have not recovered to the levels of the XDSU's. Now the Jacks have better talent, facilities and coaches than UND and I don't see that changing. If SDSU overtakes NDSU in the coming years I would not be shocked but nothing seems to be sustained.

[MontanaRabbit]

Re: The end of NDSU domination

Anyone notice that this message board spends no time on issues like the following:
do we need a new coach?
who's going to be the new coach?
why are our athletes in trouble?
how come none of our athletes made all-conference?
how come none of our athletes made all-conference academic?
have there been any pro scouts hanging around this year?

A question asked many times this season: Are we going to make the playoffs?

A question we're now asking: What's is going to take to win a national title?

I look at our MVFC-mates' fan message boards. They're not all talking about the same topics we discuss.

Oh man JackJD you must have been bored yesterday!

While I admire your attempt to prove NDSU's domination is over, I'm not buying it. We haven't beaten them this decade and couldn't beat them with what could possibly be the best senior class in SDSU history. That sucks....a lot.

While I agree the new facilities will help level the playing field a bit, I also don't believe our current facilities are the only reason we can't seem to get over the hump. I think we have a lot farther to go to be a contender than most here want to admit. No doubt we've made progress in last 10 years, but we have to keep that momentum going and we can't do that by being satisfied by years like this one.

[Nidaros]

Re: The end of NDSU domination

Reading comprehension is not my forte. That everyone on here will agree. I completely missed the title of thread. I guess I was distracted by Grizzled Jack's comment about Ralph Ginn being clueless about platoon football that Ijumped right in in the history stuff. There are some signs such as the boredom of the student body at NDSU, we have problem too. I am with Montana Rabbit on this one. NDSU is not going down any time soon. That's what Fargo is all about.

[slosho]

Re: The end of NDSU domination

There is a reference to the dakotadome and not the fargo-dome. FYI.

I tend to agree with Montana, recruiting and play outcomes are also affected by a common factor that does not include facilities.
I would argue that if we play the #1(or 2) team in the second round of the playoffs continually we are were we are going to be for the next 3-5 years. I think some things change at that point that will make other impacts. Time will tell.

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: The end of NDSU domination

Oh man JackJD you must have been bored yesterday!

While I admire your attempt to prove NDSU's domination is over, I'm not buying it. We haven't beaten them this decade and couldn't beat them with what could possibly be the best senior class in SDSU history. That sucks....a lot.

While I agree the new facilities will help level the playing field a bit, I also don't believe our current facilities are the only reason we can't seem to get over the hump. I think we have a lot farther to go to be a contender than most here want to admit. No doubt we've made progress in last 10 years, but we have to keep that momentum going and we can't do that by being satisfied by years like this one.

So, what's the solution? Fire Stig? Put a countdown clock in the lockerroom?

I believe the program is heading in the right direction. I'm not sure what more a fan base can ask.

[rabbits64]

Re: The end of NDSU domination

NDSU will still be the benchmark, but I don' t think they will dominate us. Even if we are 5-5 like 2000-2009, this is what we need. We need to set our standards as the National Title. That is accomplished by winning the MVFC, getting homefield and not having to play in Fargo. Where we also need to improve is keeping our top assistants. NDSU does a great job of that. We have good enough athletes, we have the facilities to recruit, our fan base can still get better, but we are getting there. Finally it is the mindset that we can beat anyone and win the title. Once we get over the mental hurdle of beating NDSU I think the skys the limit.

[goon]

Re: The end of NDSU domination

So, what's the solution? Fire Stig? Put a countdown clock in the lockerroom?

I believe the program is heading in the right direction. I'm not sure what more a fan base can ask.

I think thats actually his point, we are going in the right direction, we just had the greatest class of SDSU football, but still only got as far as we have every year losing in the 2nd round. So NDSU is still going to be good, but the point is we still have to get better, we still have to raise our game after watching record setting players at SDSU leave it almost feels like we wont ever catch up. I guess we are still 2nd to NDSU until we can consistantly beat them or atleast split with them. I still think there is more good to come from SDSU football, but watching the best QB RB and one of the best WR leave after going 0-6, or 0-7 cant remember how many they have played against them but we arent as close as we would like to think regardless of the score saturday. If we win that changes things for sure. But you know the saying close only counts in.........

[Nidaros]

Re: The end of NDSU domination

So, what's the solution? Fire Stig? Put a countdown clock in the lockerroom?

I believe the program is heading in the right direction. I'm not sure what more a fan base can ask.

I don't think it hurts to get the yard stick out do some measurements. After the sting from Saturday, this a good time to do that. One thing in the pregame radio coverage that I have listen to was AD Sells comments about Coach Stig. Judging what I have heard there is little chance Stig would be fired
I agree we are going in the right direction.