New SDSU Football Stadium Site Plan

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: New SDSU Football Stadium Site Plan

I should clarify. I'm not against the principle of LEED which for those who don't know is basically reducing energy usage in buildings by meeting certain requirements during building design.

What I don't agree with is paying (which can amount to thousands of dollars) to get a certificate that means absolutely zero. Many of the things required for LEED certification are things that we as building designers should be doing regardless because they are beneficial to our client, ie designing an energy efficient mechanical system.

I don't agree with spending money just to get to a LEED credit.

I know at the federal level all new buildings have to be LEED certified. I don't know about individual state and local jurisdictions but many likely have mandates.

When I first started at the company I'm currently with LEED was relatively new. We had a partner that was hook line and sinker into LEED. They pumped LEED on every project and paid employees a bonus to get certified as LEED professionals. We spent a TON of money pushing LEED. Then the recession came around and LEED really took a back seat. We were still designing around a lot of the principles with LEED, but we weren't pushing the certifications and weren't paying people to get their certification.

Now we rarely see a private client go after LEED certification. Most of the LEED projects we work on now-a-days are government jobs. Business savvy private clients see there is zero benefit in paying the fees to get a certificate.

Just curious, but were their tax advantages for being LEED certified that expired or are not offered any more? That would make a big difference to private clients.

IMO, no outdoor facility should get any kind of LEED certification if it utilizes artificial turf. I wonder how the carbon footprint of artificial vs real grass compares.

On a serious note, I do not care at all about LEED.

[MontanaRabbit]

Re: New SDSU Football Stadium Site Plan

Just curious, but were their tax advantages for being LEED certified that expired or are not offered any more? That would make a big difference to private clients.

IMO, no outdoor facility should get any kind of LEED certification if it utilizes artificial turf. I wonder how the carbon footprint of artificial vs real grass compares.

On a serious note, I do not care at all about LEED.

I don't know the ins and outs enough to answer that question.

I do know that getting LEED certification is costly. There are fees for the certification, fees to the architects/engineers to prepare the documents for certification, and added costs during construction to meet LEED requirements. Some (most) of the added costs during construction aren't recouped during the life of the building. An example of this would be solar power. Solar panels are expensive to buy and install. The payback on the panels is longer than the expected lifespan of the panels. So if you want to install solar panels you're going to spend more money upfront and not get that money back in energy savings. Most private clients are concerned about their bottom line and aren't willing to spend money like that.

We all know the last thing on the government's mind is the bottom line .

One thing about LEED before the recession. They had a good marketing effort. On the edges it looks really good. But when you dig deeper in order to meet the requirements for LEED credits it might add 10% to the construction costs, but you might only save 5% on energy costs throughout the life of the building. Doesn't make financial sense.

[Grizzled_Jack]

Re: New SDSU Football Stadium Site Plan

Just curious, but were their tax advantages for being LEED certified that expired or are not offered any more? That would make a big difference to private clients.

IMO, no outdoor facility should get any kind of LEED certification if it utilizes artificial turf. I wonder how the carbon footprint of artificial vs real grass compares.

On a serious note, I do not care at all about LEED.

I was able to build hundreds of thousands of square feet of public buildings in a prevailing wage state at 1/3 the average cost. Secret? Eschew architects with a history of public buildings. They know how to waste money-- I liked people who did movie theaters and car dealerships.

When I looked into LEED certification, I was appalled at the unnecessary cost. A small (14,000) suburb in my county paid through the nose to get LEED certification on a city hall. All building materials had to be routed through a Home Depot for LEED certification, since the Home Depot was the only entity in the county who had bothered to certify. Last year, I noticed they had window air conditioners sticking out of their new, expensive building. Haha. This same municipality also did a 20+ year tax abatement on a strip center because the developer mis-estimated the amount of fill needed, and they wanted to encourage economic development.

As to tax advantages. How do LEED credits pass through a tax-exempt entity? Is there some kind of add-on to bond holders? That seems really bizarre, but there's enough scammers out there looking for a quick buck that it wouldn't surprise me.

[MontanaRabbit]

Re: New SDSU Football Stadium Site Plan

I was able to build hundreds of thousands of square feet of public buildings in a prevailing wage state at 1/3 the average cost. Secret? Eschew architects with a history of public buildings. They know how to waste money-- I liked people who did movie theaters and car dealerships.

When I looked into LEED certification, I was appalled at the unnecessary cost. A small (14,000) suburb in my county paid through the nose to get LEED certification on a city hall. All building materials had to be routed through a Home Depot for LEED certification, since the Home Depot was the only entity in the county who had bothered to certify. Last year, I noticed they had window air conditioners sticking out of their new, expensive building. Haha. This same municipality also did a 20+ year tax abatement on a strip center because the developer mis-estimated the amount of fill needed, and they wanted to encourage economic development.

As to tax advantages. How do LEED credits pass through a tax-exempt entity? Is there some kind of add-on to bond holders? That seems really bizarre, but there's enough scammers out there looking for a quick buck that it wouldn't surprise me.

Smoke and mirrors I tell ya.

[Nidaros]

Re: New SDSU Football Stadium Site Plan

Grizzled, good question, as far as tax credits. In theory you have to have tax liability before you can take advantage of credits. Since SDSU technically is not a tax payer, it has no liability and seems to me the credits would not apply. Attempting to get the Ceritification would be more to set an example rather to take advantage of credits. This LEED program appears to be a joke. I am all for a green economy or energy efficency items and putting them into practice, but this is not a working program.

[shot_5533]

Re: New SDSU Football Stadium Site Plan

I don't know the ins and outs enough to answer that question.

I do know that getting LEED certification is costly. There are fees for the certification, fees to the architects/engineers to prepare the documents for certification, and added costs during construction to meet LEED requirements. Some (most) of the added costs during construction aren't recouped during the life of the building. An example of this would be solar power. Solar panels are expensive to buy and install. The payback on the panels is longer than the expected lifespan of the panels. So if you want to install solar panels you're going to spend more money upfront and not get that money back in energy savings. Most private clients are concerned about their bottom line and aren't willing to spend money like that.

We all know the last thing on the government's mind is the bottom line .

One thing about LEED before the recession. They had a good marketing effort. On the edges it looks really good. But when you dig deeper in order to meet the requirements for LEED credits it might add 10% to the construction costs, but you might only save 5% on energy costs throughout the life of the building. Doesn't make financial sense.

MontanaRabbit is absolutely correct. The great recession has destroyed LEED even in the liberal state of Minnesota. 10% higher cost is lite IMO opinion. I've seen LEED add 50% to building costs. No one can afford that in today's market.

Where SDSU will gain a lot of LEED points is in the recycling of the existing stadium. The materials are recycled because they make economic sense. Certifying wood does not make economic sense and I can't see that happening too often in South Dakota. South Dakota has a lot of wheat, so maybe they are thinking about using wheat board on the building. As for the local sourcing - LEED gives credit for a 500 mile circle for manufactures and suppliers.

However, that being said - where is the first major Architectural School in the Midwest located. I think the first in over 100 years? (could be wrong but that is what I've heard). SDSU. Architects are by nature almost as liberal in their thinking as teachers/professors. Sorry if I am offending anyone, but it tends to be true. Spec writers tend towards conservative thinking. If you are going to have an Architectural College on campus, you need to be building LEED buildings to keep up with the Jones's. As stated too - Silver is not to high to achieve. LEED makes sense when LEED makes economical sense such as in energy efficient buildings, local manufactures, and recycling of materials.

Great discussion and last thing I'd ever thought I'd see on a Jacks football forum - LEED.

[shot_5533]

Re: New SDSU Football Stadium Site Plan

I was able to build hundreds of thousands of square feet of public buildings in a prevailing wage state at 1/3 the average cost. Secret? Eschew architects with a history of public buildings. They know how to waste money-- I liked people who did movie theaters and car dealerships.

When I looked into LEED certification, I was appalled at the unnecessary cost. A small (14,000) suburb in my county paid through the nose to get LEED certification on a city hall. All building materials had to be routed through a Home Depot for LEED certification, since the Home Depot was the only entity in the county who had bothered to certify. Last year, I noticed they had window air conditioners sticking out of their new, expensive building. Haha. This same municipality also did a 20+ year tax abatement on a strip center because the developer mis-estimated the amount of fill needed, and they wanted to encourage economic development.

As to tax advantages. How do LEED credits pass through a tax-exempt entity? Is there some kind of add-on to bond holders? That seems really bizarre, but there's enough scammers out there looking for a quick buck that it wouldn't surprise me.

Public building are intended to last 100 years. Thus the better Architects will specify better materials to last the 100 years. Of course you can build a public building on the cheap, but that will cost the owner in the long run. Stadium Architecture is specialized, but I haven't been too impressed with the Populous (the old HOK) and HKS. M A Morten son is calling the shots on the Viking Stadium just like they did on the Twins and Gopher Stadium. If you can remember back when the Jacks played at TCF, it was a very well built stadium.

I've worked in non union states and in union states. I can state for an unequivocal fact that the building are better built in union states. I personally don't care as long as everyone is on a level playing field for bid with union vs. non union. But I've ran jobs in Arizona where the floor was out 2 1/2 inches and we couldn't get the cabinet tops level. Union workers also have a better safety track record. There is no doubt however that union work costs more. I'd argue about the 30% but this is a football forum and who cares.

The buildings I've seen at SDSU have been excellent. I think the Architects and Contractors in South Dakota are excellent.

The new Stadium will be magnificent.

The lawyers will have to answer the tax credits for LEED in South Dakota. I'm still trying to figure out the big windmills put up in South Dakota on the Minnesota border. There always one that doesn't work and it takes more energy to build them than they payback in electricity. Add in the leases to the farmers, do you even break even? And the poor birds that those things kill. - I would compare LEED to windmills - same mentality.

[MontanaRabbit]

Re: New SDSU Football Stadium Site Plan

Public building are intended to last 100 years. Thus the better Architects will specify better materials to last the 100 years. Of course you can build a public building on the cheap, but that will cost the owner in the long run. Stadium Architecture is specialized, but I haven't been too impressed with the Populous (the old HOK) and HKS. M A Morten son is calling the shots on the Viking Stadium just like they did on the Twins and Gopher Stadium. If you can remember back when the Jacks played at TCF, it was a very well built stadium.

I've worked in non union states and in union states. I can state for an unequivocal fact that the building are better built in union states. I personally don't care as long as everyone is on a level playing field for bid with union vs. non union. But I've ran jobs in Arizona where the floor was out 2 1/2 inches and we couldn't get the cabinet tops level. Union workers also have a better safety track record. There is no doubt however that union work costs more. I'd argue about the 30% but this is a football forum and who cares.

The buildings I've seen at SDSU have been excellent. I think the Architects and Contractors in South Dakota are excellent.

The new Stadium will be magnificent.

The lawyers will have to answer the tax credits for LEED in South Dakota. I'm still trying to figure out the big windmills put up in South Dakota on the Minnesota border. There always one that doesn't work and it takes more energy to build them than they payback in electricity. Add in the leases to the farmers, do you even break even? And the poor birds that those things kill. - I would compare LEED to windmills - same mentality.

LEED kills birds?!?! I kid I kid.

I like the analogy of LEED to wind farms. Both are well intentioned, but both fall short on delivering what is promised.

If I remember right our company offered a $500 bonus for getting LEED certified. I could have done it and gotten a free $500. I didn't agree with the LEED program so I didn't get certified.

[JackJD]

Re: New SDSU Football Stadium Site Plan

Nobody defending wind farms? Wind is an energy source that we have a lot of around here! (I mean South Dakota, not this message board.)

[Kemo]

Re: New SDSU Football Stadium Site Plan

Nobody defending wind farms? Wind is an energy source that we have a lot of around here! (I mean South Dakota, not this message board.)

I'll defend wind farms. I'm for anything that takes vengeance upon the devil birds that bombard my vehicle with white dookie on regular basis.

[goon]

Re: New SDSU Football Stadium Site Plan

Not a fan of wind farms my self. They are sorta ugly they ruin the look of the landscape, kill eagles and birds and the whole plane crash with DJ Fischer didnt do much to help my thoughts on wind farms any.

[Nidaros]

Re: New SDSU Football Stadium Site Plan

At least we can't blame climate change on wind farms, or does the fossil fuel used to run the engines on the wind farms add to the pollution? Or is climate change a big joke that some liberal scientist dreamed up?

[filbert]

Re: New SDSU Football Stadium Site Plan

I invite a return to the topic of the thread.

[SDSU16]

Re: New SDSU Football Stadium Site Plan

Per TV-
Gov. Daugaard will (ceremonially) sign the SDSU football stadium bill at 10:45 a.m. Thursday in Brookings. Event is open to the public.

[OldHare]

Re: New SDSU Football Stadium Site Plan

A related note to the new stadium is Gov. Daugaard will be in Brookings for the 10:15 signing for approval of the facility. This will be followed by a tour of the in progress practice facility. Someone had said the announcement of the signing was in the Argus. I am not sure why the guy said it was this morning, but I will know by noon since I do not get the Argus.

Tweet from Jackrabbit Athletics confirms the Thursday event at 10:45..