MO State GDT

[2002jack]

Re: MO State GDT

I can only come to one conclusion. The SDSU coaching staff does not understand how to interpret the card. There can be no other logical explanation.

There can't possibly be an intelligently written two point conversion chart that would recommend going for two-points in that situation.

[jackdaniel]

Re: MO State GDT

I think all teams being unequal is part of the reason for using the card.

You are only looking at half the equation-offense. The card was developed by highly educated and intelligent statisticians based on purely statistical data. Not dumb people. Almost all football coaches use them (including high school).

Situation 1
Offense = High % of scoring inside the 5
Defense = High % of stopping inside the 5

Situation 2
Offense = Low % of scoring inside the 5
Defense = Low % of stopping inside the 5

Situation 3
Offense = High % of scoring inside the 5
Defense = Low % of stopping inside the 5

Situation 4
Offense = Low % of scoring inside the 5
Defense = High % of stopping inside the 5

There are almost an infinite number of possibilities to throw in there, like percentages against pass, run, or qb keeper-for both offense and defense. There is no realistic way a coach could determine the best course of action based on probability. The card simplifies the decision making process based on information that is easily available in a 30 second decision making timeframe.

Fans can be critical if they want to, but they are on the wrong side of the argument. First half use is debatable, but the conversion card is pretty much football gospel.

Going against the gospel is heresy!!

[bigticket1]

Re: MO State GDT

I don't agree with going for two that many times,but the coaching scheme that bothers me the most was the punt return play (which was used twice) where all the Jacks turned their backs and ran away from the line of scrimmage. We were fortunate that didn't hurt us any worse than it did.

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: MO State GDT

Lets get all the best minds availible to put together cards for all game situations .Hire card readers to read the cards and call the play.Simple ,cheaper than hiring a coach,why take a chance on a human making a bad decision.The highest paid coaches in football are the ones who make the best decisions and ultimately get the most wins for sound decision making.Use artificial guides as that, a guide , but the final decision should be based on far more information than what you can get on a card.The card doesn't know what your team is capable of doing or not.Can't you understand this?

I do understand your argument.

Can you understand the possibility that the coaches had a thought process like, "We're down 5 points on the road. We just scored a touchdown, really getting momentum going. A 2 point conversion could be a game changer. Put us within 3, get our team fired up even more, and get the Bears down on themselves a little. We haven't had the greatest success inside the 5, but we are probably due to get a break. Worst case scenario, there is a lot of football to be played and we are still down 5. Hmm. Card says go for it, gut says go for it, LETS DO THIS FELLAS!"

In effect, doing exactly what you are saying. Then the head coach gives a simple answer in the press conference, not knowing fans would get so worked up over a missed opportunity in the first half of a road conference win.

Edit - I actually don't have that strong of an opinion on this. I do think it is overkill to put this much analysis into it.

[RabbitObsessed]

Re: MO State GDT

I'd have no problem with going for 2 in that situation if our offense had been incredibly successful inside the 5 up to that point. But we are not. A lot of times, we can't punch it in with 3 plays, so I do not feel confident only having 1 play.

Also, I'd say Sumner's biggest weakness to this point is that he overthrows the ball to the corner of the end-zone CONSTANTLY. That being said, I think if that's his biggest problem to this point, we are set at QB for 3 more years.

[Nidaros]

Re: MO State GDT

re-name this thread the great card debate

Funny funny Rep pts given.

[goon]

Re: MO State GDT

Wrong, the second I heard they were going for 2 I was dumbfounded. At that point in a game where there are still numerous points that are going to be put on the board you cannot go for 2. You must take the point, no exception. You might argue that our kicker isn't reliable. Well, our offense inside the 5 is even less reliable. It's nonsense to argue either way, bad decision, end of discussion. The "card" doesn't apply here.

I thought most coaches went with the mind set to never leave points on the field. If you leave a point on the field in the first half you will need to make it up in the second half. I was dumbfounded too. trying to keep the score at 3 points IMO does not help us. Sure if we made it its great, but its a risk to leave a point on the field.

[JackJD]

Re: MO State GDT

re-name this thread the great card debate

We may have to start a new thread, probably in the smack section. You know where this is going: pretty soon there will be bogus cards, secretly inserted into the clip boards of various Missouri Valley Football League coaches. Example for NDSU: On 2nd and long, punt. Example for USD: On second and long, pass to nearest Sousaphone -- 10 points if it goes in the bell.

This thread is going to pie-time...like a whipped-cream pie in the face.

Hobo Day coming up! Need another "W".

[SturgisJeff]

Re: MO State GDT

We may have to start a new thread, probably in the smack section. You know where this is going: pretty soon there will be bogus cards, secretly inserted into the clip boards of various Missouri Valley Football League coaches. Example for NDSU: On 2nd and long, punt. Example for USD: On second and long, pass to nearest Sousaphone -- 10 points if it goes in the bell.

This thread is going to pie-time...like a whipped-cream pie in the face.

Hobo Day coming up! Need another "W".

this past week my wife made two chocolate pudding pies with crushed oreos crust, a banana creme pie and a pumpkin pie. ummmmmmm

[Jacks#1Fan]

Re: MO State GDT

Oh hell, why not...go for a comment on this weird thread (why? because I just read all 203 comments when I should have been doing something else...ha!) OK, so let's try this one: team misses an extra point, so goes for two the next time it scores (seems like I've seen that a hundred times). We didn't on the second time, because now we really needed to go for 2. Net gain if we had kicked twice: 2 points over our score. Which means, if we had kicked twice, we would have won the game earlier (no OT). If MSU had made its field goal with 1-plus minute left, they would have won either way (with two EP or two missed tries for 2). We went for 2 at the wrong time, or the wrong reason...didn't seem to mean diddily in the end. Which means I just wasted time reading 144 posts on the first decision to go for 2 points. In the interests of honesty, I was at the game, but I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express. I do, however, know we won the game...GO JACKS!

[jackmd]

Re: MO State GDT

Oh hell, why not...go for a comment on this weird thread (why? because I just read all 203 comments when I should have been doing something else...ha!) OK, so let's try this one: team misses an extra point, so goes for two the next time it scores (seems like I've seen that a hundred times). We didn't on the second time, because now we really needed to go for 2. Net gain if we had kicked twice: 2 points over our score. Which means, if we had kicked twice, we would have won the game earlier (no OT). If MSU had made its field goal with 1-plus minute left, they would have won either way (with two EP or two missed tries for 2). We went for 2 at the wrong time, or the wrong reason...didn't seem to mean diddily in the end. Which means I just wasted time reading 144 posts on the first decision to go for 2 points. In the interests of honesty, I was at the game, but I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express. I do, however, know we won the game...GO JACKS!

You also understand that results do not always justify the means, especially as it pertains to something as critical and serious as MVC football. My sore neck is improving and my lungs are ready for the game Saturday. At least I'll be yelling at something other than my radio this weekend.

[jackdaniel]

Re: MO State GDT

I do understand your argument.

Can you understand the possibility that the coaches had a thought process like, "We're down 5 points on the road. We just scored a touchdown, really getting momentum going. A 2 point conversion could be a game changer. Put us within 3, get our team fired up even more, and get the Bears down on themselves a little. We haven't had the greatest success inside the 5, but we are probably due to get a break. Worst case scenario, there is a lot of football to be played and we are still down 5. Hmm. Card says go for it, gut says go for it, LETS DO THIS FELLAS!"

In effect, doing exactly what you are saying. Then the head coach gives a simple answer in the press conference, not knowing fans would get so worked up over a missed opportunity in the first half of a road conference win.

Edit - I actually don't have that strong of an opinion on this. I do think it is overkill to put this much analysis into it.

I was at work so couldn't reply , and when i got back it was pie in the face time already....lol,anyway,i think you deserve an answer from me,so here it is......a resounding YES to your explanation,I've really mellowed on this after being at work and thinking of other things,it really is up to the coach to do what he thinks best,we can second guess,but it's up to him,it's his job and his team.Hey,we won regardless,so why not celebrate that.....Go Jacks!!

[goon]

Re: MO State GDT

I was at work so couldn't reply , and when i got back it was pie in the face time already....lol,anyway,i think you deserve an answer from me,so here it is......a resounding YES to your explanation,I've really mellowed on this after being at work and thinking of other things,it really is up to the coach to do what he thinks best,we can second guess,but it's up to him,it's his job and his team.Hey,we won regardless,so why not celebrate that.....Go Jacks!!

At the same time we have had more yards then a lot of the teams we have played this year. So we are doing somethings right. But those yards and choices havent really turned into many wins yet this year. I feel that the coaches have not done enough to put the team in position to win many games. If we can shake the INT bug which it looks like Sumner is getting better at. If I recall 2 games in a row no INTS. Next year we should see considerable strides in the offense and its effiency. The D may still be shakey IMO.

[rabidrabbit]

Re: MO State GDT

Oh hell, why not...go for a comment on this weird thread (why? because I just read all 203 comments when I should have been doing something else...ha!) OK, so let's try this one: team misses an extra point, so goes for two the next time it scores (seems like I've seen that a hundred times). We didn't on the second time, because now we really needed to go for 2. Net gain if we had kicked twice: 2 points over our score. Which means, if we had kicked twice, we would have won the game earlier (no OT). If MSU had made its field goal with 1-plus minute left, they would have won either way (with two EP or two missed tries for 2). We went for 2 at the wrong time, or the wrong reason...didn't seem to mean diddily in the end. Which means I just wasted time reading 144 posts on the first decision to go for 2 points. In the interests of honesty, I was at the game, but I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express. I do, however, know we won the game...GO JACKS!

Which is more than 2/3's of the crowd did, according to the MSU BearNation fan site.

Hard to believe that there is a push to go to FBS given their lack of success, and audiences at MoSt.

[SoDakJack]

Re: MO State GDT

I am going to risk treason, and if you asked Stig about the card, he would most likely show it to you. It just lists all the scenerios and a decision column and two columns of their margin and the Jacks Margin. Its a time saver in a game, where you dont have the luxury of being wrong like some of our arm chair qbs, but you go by the card and often its the right choice more so than the wrong choice. Special teams are down this year in performance, so all you arm chair guys can go on and on about this or that. Why did he do this? blah blah blah.

IMO, it would take more time to look at a card, read it, and then call the play over just holding up his pointer finger.I prefer to think of myself as an arm chair wedge buster over an arm chair qb.