Centenary going DIII?

[Roy]

The thread 'More on Summit League Membership" on the UMKC fan site references an article about the Centenary administration discussing a move with their student athletes.

Might this knowledge have greased the skids for USD?

Hopefully, someone with more skills will move the link to our forum.

[LakeJack]

Re: Centenary going DIII?

The thread 'More on Summit League Membership" on the UMKC fan site references an article about the Centenary administration discussing a move with their student athletes.

Might this knowledge have greased the skids for USD?

Hopefully, someone with more skills will move the link to our forum.

http://arklatexhomepage.com/content/fulltext/?cid=62172

[Nidaros]

Re: Centenary going DIII?

The thread 'More on Summit League Membership" on the UMKC fan site references an article about the Centenary administration discussing a move with their student athletes.

Might this knowledge have greased the skids for USD?

Hopefully, someone with more skills will move the link to our forum.

I suppose its a possiblity, but who really knows. Watching the video, the Student atlhetes do not want to make a move downward. I really wonder exactly how much the school would save by moving down. I dont see any savings in overhead or maintaining the facilities and Centenary has hardly overspent in this area.

I suppose there might be savings in scholarships, but even at D3 there are scholarships, they are not called athletic scholarships in name, but they do exist. The students are getting their education paid in some manner whether its Pell grants or academic scholarships. So not sure how all this works. Some of Centenary's programs are competitive such as baseball. I would regret seeing them make this move.

[FargoBison]

Re: Centenary going DIII?

Centenary is basically a misfit in the Summit League, they have no rivals, and their travel has to be terrible. I could see why a regional DIII conference would be attractive for a small private school, especially since none of the southern DI conferences want them.

This might sound bad because NDSU is a new member but I would be happy if they left, I think there are schools that better fit the footprint and profile of the league than Centenary out there and are very willing to join.

[TeaJackrabbit]

Re: Centenary going DIII?

Centenary is basically a misfit in the Summit League, they have no rivals, and their travel has to be terrible. I could see why a regional DIII conference would be attractive for a small private school, especially since none of the southern DI conferences want them.

This might sound bad because NDSU is a new member but I would be happy if they left, I think there are schools that better fit the footprint and profile of the league than Centenary out there and very willing to join.

I agree 100% w/ verything you said. There were teams interested in the Summit who are already in conferences, not to mention schools that are better regional fits like Utah Valley St and Chicago St. There are a couple Ohio Valley schools that would make more sense coming to the Summit for both parties involved. If we could add UND, add a better regional fit and drop Centenary, I'd be happy. Make UMKC and ORU the souhern trip.

[SUPERBUNNY]

Re: Centenary going DIII?

If Centenary were to leave, where does that leave the conference? Aren't we required to have so many "core members"? Would there leaving jeopardize the autobids for NCAA Tournaments?

I know this has been discussed in other threads but maybe somebody can provide a quick refresher.

Other then that issue I can't see a downside to a Summit League without the Ladies and Gents of Centenary.

Closed ciruit to UND-Get the mascot thing figured out quick!

GB, GB, GJ!

SUPERBUNNY

[tjbison]

Re: Centenary going DIII?

If Centenary were to leave, where does that leave the conference? Aren't we required to have so many "core members"? Would there leaving jeopardize the autobids for NCAA Tournaments?

I know this has been discussed in other threads but maybe somebody can provide a quick refresher.

Other then that issue I can't see a downside to a Summit League without the Ladies and Gents of Centenary.

Closed ciruit to UND-Get the mascot thing figured out quick!

GB, GB, GJ!

SUPERBUNNY

Yes the Core member thing comes into play if Cent were to leave, we would still be ok but could not afford to lose another, which is tricky because Chicago St. would be a core member if brought back into the league.

[filbert]

Re: Centenary going DIII?

I'm not the NCAA, so this certainly isn't authoritiative:

There are two criteria involved: NCAA D-I Core membership, defined as being a full D-I school for "the eight preceding years," and the conference-continuity requirement, defined as being in the conference as a group for the previous five years. The conference-continuity requirement has a two-year grace period.

Conferences must maintain a minimum of seven Core members, six of which have to be in the conference together for five years. (My reading of the Bylaws is that the five-year continuity clock applies only to Core schools only, so you have to get through eight years in D-I to become a Core school before you start racking up the five years for continuity--this is where the 13-year wait for the old NCC to move up as a conference came from, back in the day.)

With Centenary, seven Core members have now been together in the conference for five years, so the current roster of Core-Continuity members of the Summit are:
Oakland
IUPUI
Western Illinois
UMKC
Southern Illinois
Oral Roberts
Centenary

IPFW, having come into the conference as a Core school in 2007-08, becomes a continuity member effective 2012-13.

NDSU becomes a D-I Core member effective 2016-17 and a continuity member effective 2021-22.
SDSU becomes a D-I Core member effective 2016-17 and a continuity member effective 2021-22.

USD, NCAA D-I Core member 2020-21 and a continuity member 2025-26.

Since there is a 2-year grace period, Centenary could drop out in 2010-11 without putting the Summit's automatic bid at immediate risk, because IPFW's continuity kicks in in 2012-13. The Summit would however be at the minimum for members until NDSU and SDSU both get within the two-year grace period--2019-20.

Now, if Centenary drops down, then the Summit is one more departure away from losing autobid status, being back at the minimum continuity number of six Core-continuity schools until 2019-20, when NDSU and SDSU qualify. This will probably force the Summit to add either or both of Texas Pan-Am or Chicago State ASAP (ASAP probably being no earlier than 2010-11, with continuity then in 2014-15). Both present significant problems--Texas Pan Am for geographic badness, Chicago State for, well, being Chicago State.

I don't know about you, but it strikes me that going until 2019 without losing another core member, given the past history for the MidCon/Summit, is, to put it mildly, playing with fire.

Therefore, if you're an SDSU, USD, or NDSU fan with a liking for an automatic bid into NCAA tournaments (or a UND fan with aspirations of joining a conference with an autobid), it is MADNESS to go around rooting for Centenary, Southern Utah, or anybody else to leave the Summit League. You're cutting your own throat when you do that.

Unless you really think UTPA and/or Chicago State are better than Centenary as a conference-mate, a proposition that would strike me as very arguable.

[FargoBison]

Re: Centenary going DIII?

One word Filbert....Denver.

They are a core member, a Sun Belt misfit, and I think they would go for it if UND was added as well since they have a hockey rivalry. They have no rivals in the Sun Belt, they could build some with the Dakotas and perhaps ORU.


West-(Distance between travel partners)
NDSU-UND(80 miles)
SDSU-USD(115 miles)
SUU-Denver(580 miles)

East
ORU-UMKC(244 miles)
WIU-IUPUI(260 miles)
IPFW-Oakland(192 miles)
__________________

[filbert]

Re: Centenary going DIII?

One word Filbert....Denver.

They are a core member, a Sun Belt misfit, and I think they would go for it if UND was added as well since they have a hockey rivalry. They have no rivals in the Sun Belt, they could build some with the Dakotas and perhaps ORU.


West-(Distance between travel partners)
NDSU-UND(80 miles)
SDSU-USD(115 miles)
SUU-Denver(580 miles)

East
ORU-UMKC(244 miles)
WIU-IUPUI(260 miles)
IPFW-Oakland(192 miles)
__________________

Well, yes, DU would enter the picture when and if the Sun Belt finally kicks them out. My crystal ball isn't good enough to tell me if Centenary will ever leave the Summit, or if/when Denver will leave the Sun Belt.

I works with what I gots.

[Hammersmith]

Re: Centenary going DIII?

I don't believe this has ever been tested, but I think the eight-year core member clock and the five-year continuity of membership clock run simultaneously. Thus, NDSU & SDSU would start counting in 2016-17(or 2014-15 counting the grace period). I hope we never have to find out which one of us is correct.

The "best" choices for core member expansion seem to be: 1. Denver(only 11 Summit sports - no T&F/CC, baseball, or softball); 2. Chicago State(<shudder>); 3. UTPA(horrible travel). Nobody likes any of those choices, but what can you do?


(Oh, I think the 13-year total wait came from the five-year transition plus the eight-year core member wait.)

[FargoBison]

Re: Centenary going DIII?

True, you can only work with it is known but there are some interesting scenarios out there. I do wish the NCAA would be more flexible with it's rules, schools that join existing conferences should be put onto some kind of fast track, but that is the NCAA for you.

[Rabbit74]

Re: Centenary going DIII?

I don't believe this has ever been tested, but I think the eight-year core member clock and the five-year continuity of membership clock run simultaneously. Thus, NDSU & SDSU would start counting in 2016-17(or 2014-15 counting the grace period). I hope we never have to find out which one of us is correct.

The "best" choices for core member expansion seem to be: 1. Denver(only 11 Summit sports - no T&F/CC, baseball, or softball); 2. Chicago State(<shudder>); 3. UTPA(horrible travel). Nobody likes any of those choices, but what can you do?


(Oh, I think the 13-year total wait came from the five-year transition plus the eight-year core member wait.)

I believe that you are correct on the years Hammersmith. When the Great West was discussed a few months ago, the 13 year sequence for AQs was based on the fact that the UXDs were not full members yet rather than teams having to be core members before they could start the count for continuity.

[filbert]

Re: Centenary going DIII?

I don't believe this has ever been tested, but I think the eight-year core member clock and the five-year continuity of membership clock run simultaneously. Thus, NDSU & SDSU would start counting in 2016-17(or 2014-15 counting the grace period). I hope we never have to find out which one of us is correct.

The "best" choices for core member expansion seem to be: 1. Denver(only 11 Summit sports - no T&F/CC, baseball, or softball); 2. Chicago State(<shudder>); 3. UTPA(horrible travel). Nobody likes any of those choices, but what can you do?


(Oh, I think the 13-year total wait came from the five-year transition plus the eight-year core member wait.)

I think it's a debatable point, but my reading of the NCAA Bylaws says that you have to have Core members for five years in the conference for continuity purposes, not that at the end of the five year continuity period all of the continuous members are Core members. Otherwise when does the 2-year grace period kick in, if you've got seven continuous members, of which only five are Core members?

If I was Tom Douple, I'd be on the phone daily to the NCAA trying to get a clarification in writing, and in the mean time, plan for the worst.

And yeah, thinking about it, it was 5 year transition + 8 year Core status to make the 13. Which brings up the question . . . is it really 18 years for an entire D-II conference to move up to D-I? Did anyone at the NCC actually get a ruling out of the NCAA?

[zooropa]

Re: Centenary going DIII?

New Orleans is in the same boat as Denver, and they're definitely a counter.

As far as Centenary goes, the fact that a majority of student athletes said they wouldn't return if Cent. went D-3 is significant as they represent a pretty substantial chunk of Centenary's overall enrollment.