Will UND be in the Summit?

[Hammersmith]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I've never liked East-West conferences.... First of all it screws up seeding for the tournament, do you go 1A-4B or do you seed them 1-8 or how do you do it.... plus I think every conference should play each other twice... Second of all, you'll never here the conference publically mention Denver as long as Denver is a member of another conference... Its funny how even conferences that are trying to kick out members cry foul when another conference mentions that school.... If Denver is wanted they'll just become members.... 3rd. I just don't see why now, the leaders of the conference who I classify as Oakland, IUPUI and Oral Roberts, want to make another trip to the Dakota's each year, to play transitional teams that take money from the conference, make the schedule strength weaker, and aren't a real threat of leaving for another conference (atleast at how things stands now)... And from what I can tell, I'd think it'd be odd for SDSU, NDSU and IPFW as newcomers to do anything but follow the lead of others.... SUU probably wouldn't care about coming to the Dakota's but I doubt Centenary would like to come.... I think if everything went best for USD these are the votes you would get (SDSU, NDSU, IPFW, UMKC, SUU) I don't know what the rules are for ties but I'd be guessing that (Oakland, Oral Roberts and IUPUI) have a lil more pull then the others..... just a guess though, I really don't know....

There would never be a tie. If the outcome of the vote is in question, there won't be a vote. The conference will only take the vote when they know it will be unanimous or nearly so. Even a 6-4 or 7-3 vote won't happen because to do so would force the addition of new schools over the protests of a significant number of existing schools. That's not healthy for a conference. If the conference were divided on this issue, you would see a replay of our invite to the MVFC. After the first couple meetings, there may have been enough votes to push us in, but it would have pissed off several existing members. By taking their time over several weeks, they were able to bring the dissenters on board and get a near-unanimous vote(we'll never know what the exact vote was). Expect the same to happen in this case. If there is dissent(and I expect there will be), the Summit will take its time in deciding. If there are three to five schools solidly against adding USD at this time, they won't take a vote even if the result would be a narrow victory.

[zooropa]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I've never liked East-West conferences....

I just don't see why now, the leaders of the conference who I classify as Oakland, IUPUI and Oral Roberts, want to make another trip to the Dakota's each year, to play transitional teams that take money from the conference, make the schedule strength weaker, and aren't a real threat of leaving for another conference (atleast at how things stands now)...

1) There are pretty limited options once you get over 10 teams in a conference.

I understand the 'don't expand for the sake of expanding' argument, but consider:

The UxDs bring their shared history with the xDSUs. They also bring good gates.

Another thing to mention: USD & UND are not commuter schools. Their enrollment is primarily tradional, kids right out of high school, and since (you can go anywhere from here) USD & UND grads move any number of places, USD & UND can be expected to travel better than other Summit schools (where you've got non-trads, and commuters, who are less likely to relocate after graduating and are less likely to identify themselves as much with the school they're attending).

2) 'Taking money from the conference'

The conference's take from the NCAA tourney is so small on an individual basis that dividing it by 12 instead of 10 is barely worth mentioning.

Yes, it's a reduction of 20%, but in actual dollar amounts, it's not that much.

This example uses 2007 tournament data:

http://www.newsobserver.com/122/story/559082.html

$176,864 * 7 ( 6 appearances + 1 win) = $1,238,048

Divided by 10 teams = $123,805 per school

Divided by 12 teams = $103,171 per school

Or $20k.

That's 2% of $1M, .2% of $10M.

In other words, it's not significant.

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

1) There are pretty limited options once you get over 10 teams in a conference.

I understand the 'don't expand for the sake of expanding' argument, but consider:

The UxDs bring their shared history with the xDSUs. They also bring good gates.

Another thing to mention: USD & UND are not commuter schools. Their enrollment is primarily tradional, kids right out of high school, and since (you can go anywhere from here) USD & UND grads move any number of places, USD & UND can be expected to travel better than other Summit schools (where you've got non-trads, and commuters, who are less likely to relocate after graduating and are less likely to identify themselves as much with the school they're attending).

2) 'Taking money from the conference'

The conference's take from the NCAA tourney is so small on an individual basis that dividing it by 12 instead of 10 is barely worth mentioning.

Yes, it's a reduction of 20%, but in actual dollar amounts, it's not that much.

This example uses 2007 tournament data:

http://www.newsobserver.com/122/story/559082.html

$176,864 * 7 ( 6 appearances + 1 win) = $1,238,048

Divided by 10 teams = $123,805 per school

Divided by 12 teams = $103,171 per school

Or $20k.

That's 2% of $1M, .2% of $10M.

In other words, it's not significant.

$20k is basically 2 scholarships to SDSU or NDSU. That seems kind of significant to me. Not sure what other conf member tuition is.

I don't think many here are doubting whether or not the UXD's would make solid conference members at some point, but there isn't really any urgency to add them now, especially if adding them p!sses off other existing conference members.

Also from a Jackrabbit (or Bison) point of view, don't you think USD is already telling recruits, "we're a shoe in for conference affiliation. Come here and when you're a senior you can play for the big dance." We never had that luxury going through transition, and I don't think they should either.

[TeaJackrabbit]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I've been keeping my ear to the MWC expansion rumors since I root for Wyoming. There has been some noise about the MWC adding Fresno and Boise. Some wants a 12-team league but no one has a clue who'll be the 12th team. The favoite is Nevada since travel costs will keep Hawaii out of the MWC..

I really like the MWC. Adding Boise, Nevada and Fresno would make that a GREAT conference! Furthermore, you'd think those three schools would be would be kicking and screaming to get out of the WAC. Yuck!

P.S. A buddy of mine played at Wyo (Kendrick Rawls)

[zooropa]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

$20k is basically 2 scholarships to SDSU or NDSU. That seems kind of significant to me.

Also from a Jackrabbit (or Bison) point of view, don't you think USD is already telling recruits, "we're a shoe in for conference affiliation. Come here and when you're a senior you can play for the big dance." We never had that luxury going through transition, and I don't think they should either.

1) It's not significant. It's less than half a percent of the athletic budget for both institutions.

2) Frankly, USD can say 'Come here and when you're a senior you can play for the big dance' and nobody at NDSU & SDSU should give a rip. Why? Because they can recruit thusly: 'Come here and you can play for the big dance next year.'

[LakeJack]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

RPI and home games not travel will be the drivers. It is hard for Mid-Majors to get home games and so anything that lowers the amount of home games, like an East-West split, that conference membership provides will be a non-starter I think.

The Summit Plan is all about raising the RPI, I don't think adding a transitional team or two helps that. I do see USD and UND in someday, but I agree with Filbert it will be after their transition is over.

The best that USD and UND can hope for is a SIU-E deal - You are "in" but not until your tansition is over. Unless a need comes up.

[LakeJack]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

1) There are pretty limited options once you get over 10 teams in a conference.

I understand the 'don't expand for the sake of expanding' argument, but consider:

The UxDs bring their shared history with the xDSUs. They also bring good gates.

Another thing to mention: USD & UND are not commuter schools. Their enrollment is primarily tradional, kids right out of high school, and since (you can go anywhere from here) USD & UND grads move any number of places, USD & UND can be expected to travel better than other Summit schools (where you've got non-trads, and commuters, who are less likely to relocate after graduating and are less likely to identify themselves as much with the school they're attending).

2) 'Taking money from the conference'

The conference's take from the NCAA tourney is so small on an individual basis that dividing it by 12 instead of 10 is barely worth mentioning.

Yes, it's a reduction of 20%, but in actual dollar amounts, it's not that much.

This example uses 2007 tournament data:

http://www.newsobserver.com/122/story/559082.html

$176,864 * 7 ( 6 appearances + 1 win) = $1,238,048

Divided by 10 teams = $123,805 per school

Divided by 12 teams = $103,171 per school

Or $20k.

That's 2% of $1M, .2% of $10M.

In other words, it's not significant.

#1 - Good for SDSU and NDSU, how does it help me if I am ORU's or Centenary's President?

#2 - Why should I as ORU's or Centenary's President give up even $1

You have to ask and answer the question "What is in it for me?" from the point of view of each President in the Conference.

Also keep in mind that some of the Presidents are from "commuter" schools and may not see anything wrong with them. We think Vermillion is small, think about what the Presidents of IUPUI or UMKC thinks sitting in Indianapolis or Kansas City.

[zooropa]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

#1 - Good for SDSU and NDSU how does it help me if I am ORU's or Centenary's President?

#2 - Why should I as ORU's or Centenary's President give up even $1

You have to ask the question "What is in it for me?" from the point of view of each President in the Conference.

Also keep in mind that some of the Presidents are from "commuter" schools and may not see anything wrong with them. We think Vermillion is small, think about what the President of IUPUI thinks.

#1 conference stability, conference stability, conference stability.

The good schools East are at perpetual risk of being poached by the Horizon (i.e. Cleveland State, Valpo, Youngstown State, Illinois-Chicago, Wisconsin-Green Bay, etc.) However, where are the Dakota schools going to go? the Valley is a pipe dream, and no other conference in the area would be remotely interested in extending an invitation.

ORU, Centenary, etc. realize that the reputation of the conference hinges in no small part on its membership stability. A conference that has seen more traffic than the Wasta rest stop over the past 25 years has no tradition, no legacy, nothing to build on, nothing to sell, no story to tell.

#2 I'm pretty sure increased revenue from this year's tournament will all but eliminate any shortfall caused by splitting the NCAA tournament take 10 ways instead of 8. With UND & USD drawing as well as they do, future conference tournaments bid fair to provide a dividend that more than makes up for any lost NCAA split.

The president of IUPUI should be looking at USD's gate and asking himself, "What do we need to do to get those numbers." Size of the community don't mean jack. It's the size of the gate.

And no there's nothing 'wrong' with commuter schools, but it is an indisputable fact that SDSU & NDSU dominated actual attendance in M&W BB this year and last..

[jackmd]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

#1 conference stability, conference stability, conference stability.

The good schools East are at perpetual risk of being poached by the Horizon (i.e. Cleveland State, Valpo, Youngstown State, Illinois-Chicago, Wisconsin-Green Bay, etc.) However, where are the Dakota schools going to go? the Valley is a pipe dream, and no other conference in the area would be remotely interested in extending an invitation.

ORU, Centenary, etc. realize that the reputation of the conference hinges in no small part on its membership stability. A conference that has seen more traffic than the Wasta rest stop over the past 25 years has no tradition, no legacy, nothing to build on, nothing to sell, no story to tell.

#2 I'm pretty sure increased revenue from this year's tournament will all but eliminate any shortfall caused by splitting the NCAA tournament take 10 ways instead of 8. With UND & USD drawing as well as they do, future conference tournaments bid fair to provide a dividend that more than makes up for any lost NCAA split.

The president of IUPUI should be looking at USD's gate and asking himself, "What do we need to do to get those numbers." Size of the community don't mean jack. It's the size of the gate.

And no there's nothing 'wrong' with commuter schools, but it is an indisputable fact that SDSU & NDSU dominated actual attendance in M&W BB this year and last..

The Valley is more than just a pipe dream. Its a conference we should strive to achieve membership in.

There is no guarantee that USD will draw well at the DI level. The attendance numbers (inflated, not butts in seats) were near the top of DII when fans were familiar with some opponents, that may not translate to DI, then again it may.

Transitional teams with an uncertain commitment to DI athletics don't provide any stability in my mind. In fact, they might create more problems than they solve. The U's need to demonstrate a solid commitment to advancing their programs, the transition allows for them to demonstrate that. If they do and the majority of the conference programs wish to expand than offer the invitation. I, once again, see no compelling reason to do it any sooner than that.

[OKC_Poke]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I really like the MWC. Adding Boise, Nevada and Fresno would make that a GREAT conference! Furthermore, you'd think those three schools would be would be kicking and screaming to get out of the WAC. Yuck!

P.S. A buddy of mine played at Wyo (Kendrick Rawls)

They are! But the universities have to be quiet about it though.

[zooropa]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

The Valley is more than just a pipe dream. Its a conference we should strive to achieve membership in.

There is no guarantee that USD will draw well at the DI level. The attendance numbers (inflated, not butts in seats) were near the top of DII when fans were familiar with some opponents, that may not translate to DI, then again it may.

Transitional teams with an uncertain commitment to DI athletics don't provide any stability in my mind. In fact, they might create more problems than they solve. The U's need to demonstrate a solid commitment to advancing their programs, the transition allows for them to demonstrate that. If they do and the majority of the conference programs wish to expand than offer the invitation. I, once again, see no compelling reason to do it any sooner than that.

The administration should strive to gain admission to the Valley and never again host a conference basketball tournament? Should build facilities that hold 7,000+ for basketball ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missour...all_attendance see also figures for stadium size)? Why?

What does the Valley offer? They're going to have as many teams in the tournament this year as the Summit: one. Last year they only sent one team as well. And their one team (UNI) is probably going to get bounced in the first round.

----

Furthermore, no one is suggesting admitting USD next year as a full member: The admission invitation should be -contingent on- full funding of their NCAA scholarship and staffing requirements and a demonstrated improvement in scheduling year over year.

Next year, USD will be mandated to carry a full D-1 schedule in basketball or they risk forfeiting their status as a transitional program. Ditto UND. The Summit could go farther and mandate a certain slate of quality D-1 opponents.

----

Finally, I recall the -exact same arguments- about gate being advanced about SDSU and NDSU, and I recall the anti-D1 crowd crowing about the dramatically smaller gate at MBB games during the transition.....

It would be rather inappropriate to simultaneously celebrate SDSU's successful year at the gate while suggesting that USD won't be able to draw at the D-1 level.

[Hammersmith]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

By the time the Mid-Con was considering us in 2006, both NDSU and SDSU had already achieved significant success. NDSU had notched the Wisconsin win and the SDSU women were already starting to show their brilliance. We both had DI resumes. UND & USD don't have that yet. Also, the Summit isn't in desperate need of members like they were back then. What most of us on this side of the fence are saying is we don't expect to see anything in writing come out of the June meeting. I don't want to see the Summit make any formal commitments to USD. I don't have a problem with informal, but I don't want to see any kind of conditional acceptance where USD can try to find ways to barely satisfy the conditions and force the Summit to let them in if things go badly for them over the next couple years. I want USD(& UND) to prove they can hack it at this level on their own before giving them any kind of commitment.

[zooropa]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

I want USD(& UND) to prove they can hack it at this level on their own before giving them any kind of commitment.

I disagree with the assertion that this is a mutually exclusive alternative to a conditional invitation.

A conditional invitation that requires all sports to be fully funded and fully staffed by 2012--and to remain so funded--will put USD's athletic program on solid footing.

Why? Because, contrary to the rhetoric you'll hear around here from time to time, USD's athletic department will make generally wise personnel decisions about their coaching staff, and with a full complement of scholarships and staff under the direction of good coaches, USD will attain competence at D-1 athletics, all around, and undoubtedly will have one or two 'spotlight' success stories.

Provided they fully fund their operations.

[jackmd]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

It would be rather inappropriate to simultaneously celebrate SDSU's successful year at the gate while suggesting that USD won't be able to draw at the D-1 level.

I don't think its inappropriate at all to suggest that possibility. USD and SDSU don't share the same fan base. We have been able to improve attendance without the local rivalries. I'm not certain USD will be able to do that. To assume they will because SDSU was able to is a mistake in my opinion.

I also don't buy the argument that the Valley and Summit are on equal footing. The Valley had a down year on the national scene and may only get 1 team in. Both Illinois State and Creighton will get consideration, I assure you of that.

Lastly, I'm concerned that some want the NCC of old to spring up in DI under the guise of the Summit League. I don't want supporters of SDSU looking backwards, lets continue to move forward. I think you were the one speaking about "commuter" schools and how much different they are than the SU's. The Valley doesn't have those issues.

I, for one, would jump at the opportunity to enter the MVC. The benefits greatly outweigh anything lost from the Summit League. That said, I'm committed to the Summit League as it is now and look for it to continue to improve.

[joeboo22]

Re: Will UND be in the Summit?

It doesn't come down to USD and UND funding there programs, or even being good.... What it comes down to is this... Does IUPUI, Oakland, IPFW, Centenary, and Oral Roberts want to make another trip to the Dakota's? That is what it comes down to... UMKC won't care because it is relatively close, and SUU has to travel a ways no matter where they play.... I think if 1 team was to be added, some in the conference would rather have Utah Valley State (or whatever they call themselves now)... that way they don't have to fly from Kansas City to Vegas and bus 3 hours to Cedar City, (Orem about an hour or so from Salt Lake City, and 3 hours or so from Cedar City).... just saying that its not what people in the Dakota's want its what the other presidents want....