Will Summit tourney stay in Sioux Falls?

[zooropa]

Re: Will Summit tourney stay in Sioux Falls?

I don't know what is so hard to understand about the Bison playing in an addition to the Fargodome while the Summit tourney is going to be played at the Fargodome.

And in such a scenario, I think the facilities become a liability when compared to a Sioux Falls bid--which was the issue I raised originally:

That building a BB arena for the Bison & hosting the tournament in the Fargodome puts Fargo at a facilities disadvantage vs. Sioux Falls (assuming sponsorship money & revenue guarantees are not a factor).

Conversely, hosting the tournament in the Fargodome annex would require most Bison games be played in the BSA.

Either you put the facilities at a disadvantage to Sioux Falls, or you leave the Bison in the BSA and have something of a white elephant eleven months of the year.

[FargoBison]

Re: Will Summit tourney stay in Sioux Falls?

I don't know what is so hard to understand about the Bison playing in an addition to the Fargodome while the Summit tourney is going to be played at the Fargodome.

The renovated BSA has little to do with the basketball arena part of the building, outside of new seats. It is much more about other sports and giving them all an upgrade. The city would never give NDSU a dime to help renovate it.

As for the UP Center, it is a hockey arena more than anything. I think it has hosted maybe one concert, the acoustics of that venue are really quite terrible. I don't think it is even logistically possible to put on a concert/non-hockey event from September to April due to all the hockey games.

[zooropa]

Re: Will Summit tourney stay in Sioux Falls?

The current touring market favors two models. The first is a smaller number of very big concerts in major markets. The Fargodome isn't big enough for these types and there aren't enough people in the area even if it was. Those concerts will stay in Minneapolis before flying over us to Denver or Las Vegas. The second model is a larger number of smaller concerts(5k-10k) in a variety of markets. The Fargodome isn't well suited for these types. Even the half-house configuration seats 12k.

So it's your assertion that 38k seats of concert capacity (c. 20k @ Fargodome, c. 5k @ UPC, c. 3k Fargo Civic Center, c. 10k @ Fargodome BB annex) in Fargo will be consistently more profitable than the current c. 28k seat capacity?

Your assumption seems to be that Fargo could build a ~10k seat arena and get by mostly on concert revenue, as they would necessarily forfeit most Bison games to bid on the Summit Tournament.

Pardon me if that assumption seems flawed on two fronts:

1) It assumes that the 5-10k concert market will be steady and predictable, when nothing about the music promotional business has ever been or shows any likelihood of ever being predictable.

2) It assumes that the general public would 'get' continuing to go to the BSA for Bison games for basketball despite the Fargodome annex.

That seems to stretch credibility. Especially when you factor in the various things that the arena wouldn't be used for since the Fargodome is already available (trade shows, etc.)

Frankly, it seems difficult to imagine the arena making sense without the Bison, and with the Bison you've shot the Summit bid in the foot.

It, furthermore, doesn't seem likely that you could have both the Fargodome annex -AND- a significantly upgraded BSA.

BSA upgrades split between the city & NDSU--with Summit basketball bid for the Fargodome seems the most realistic expectation.

[tjbison]

Re: Will Summit tourney stay in Sioux Falls?

Okay, more than a few inaccuracies in this thread. I don't want to quote three or four messages, so I trust you'll be able to figure out which post I'm referring to by context.


First, the Fargodome can be used to host the Summit tourney. The NCAA uses a way to determine what is a school's home court, and I'm sure the Summit follows it. A home court is one that a school plays at least half of its home games at, and a DI school must play at least one third of its total games at that location. As long as NDSU only plays a couple games or less at the Fargodome, it can host the Summit tourney. Where NDSU plays football has absolutely nothing to do with it.

The Fargodome has not bid on the tourney to this point because of pre-existing contracts. The ND state basketball tournament has been held in the Fargodome for the last couple years and will be there for a year or two more before rotating to another city. That took up one of the two possible weekends. The other weekend was taken up by an annual sporting show that is scheduled several years in advance and the current contract runs through 2011. The FD management hasn't come right out and said it, but they've hinted strongly that they will be keeping the Summit tourney weekend open when the next round of negotiations are up for the various events. Expect strong competition from Fargo for the 2013-14 tourney.


Regarding the profitability of a FD arena addition, zooropa doesn't seem to understand the current concert touring situation or the particulars of Fargo and the Fargodome. When first built, the Fargodome was making between a half million and three-quarter million a year. That dropped to a break-even level during the early part of this decade and has only slightly improved since then. So what happened? In the 90's, big touring acts were commonplace. The Fargodome was able to land at least a couple concerts a year that needed the full floor setup(15k-25k). Then the industry changed. The tech bubble crash followed by 9/11 and the resulting conflicts in the Middle East drove up travel expenses and drove down purchases of expensive concert tickets. The number of big concert tours plummeted. Additionally, the ones that did still tour stayed in the major markets like Chicago, Denver and Minneapolis. Things were starting to improve until the latest economic crises.

The current touring market favors two models. The first is a smaller number of very big concerts in major markets. The Fargodome isn't big enough for these types and there aren't enough people in the area even if it was. Those concerts will stay in Minneapolis before flying over us to Denver or Las Vegas. The second model is a larger number of smaller concerts(5k-10k) in a variety of markets. The Fargodome isn't well suited for these types. Even the half-house configuration seats 12k.

Since the Fargodome has to keep its rates comparable to other larger venues(or lose major bargaining power with the big concerts), it's getting undercut by the Alerus and Ralph in Grand Forks, as well as venues in Winnipeg and Sioux Falls. What Fargo needs is a venue that fills the gap between the Fargo Civic Center(3k) and the FD half-house(12k). The Urban Plains Center does a little of that(and has made the whole situation a lot more complex), but it only seats around 5k, still leaving a gap. The FD arena was meant to fill the void and bring those smaller concerts to Fargo as well as serving as a home to Bison Basketball. Economic studies showed that the arena would at least break even and might make up to a million a year beyond the current FD(the study looked at both facilities as a unit). The project was so close to happening before the economy tanked.


As for the FD fund, there is zero chance that would be used to bankroll the Summit bid. Just like Sioux Falls, the money would come from the city and corporate sponsors like Microsoft, Bank of the West, US Bank, Gate City Bank, Cargil, Sanford-Meritcare, Noridian, etc. I have no doubts that Fargo will get a shot at the tourney, and I expect it to get the next bid. After four years, the novelty of being in a new city seems to wear off and attendance starts to sag. Maybe SF will buck that trend, but I bet the decision to give Fargo a turn will come before we know if that happens. If SF attendance stays high all the way through its run, then there's a good chance it will return after two years in Fargo(unless attendance in Fargo is significantly higher). The question mark is whether the other Summit schools will cry foul if it stays in the Dakotas for long stretches of time. I think the Summit will deliberately sacrifice money occasionally and move the tourney to another location just to appease them. It might be Indy, Tulsa, Quad Cities, or somewhere else, but I think it will stay there for two years before coming back to the Dakotas(SF or Fargo).

Theres a surprise, I almost started laughing when he was describing what happens at the FD

nice post Hammer

I still want a SF Fargo rotation lol

[Hammersmith]

Re: Will Summit tourney stay in Sioux Falls?

I think that if the current membership stays largely intact we're likely to see the conference tournament site basically alternating for stretches in the Dakotas (i.e. Sioux Falls or Fargo) and in the Michigan-Indiana-Illinois cluster (most likely Ft. Wayne rather than Detroit, Indianapolis, or the Quad Cities, quite honestly), with an occasional diversion to Tulsa mixed in there.

(The reason I put the eastern site in Ft. Wayne is that the other three--Detroit, Indy, Quad Cities, are really, really hard-core Big 10 home towns -- Michigan/MSU; Purdue/IU; and Iowa/Illinois, respectively - and the league has adequate experience trying to carve out a niche in a town already owned by a BCS league--Kansas City. Best to avoid the head-to-head in favor of cities where you'll be able to generate more excitement than yawns.)

I agree with your reasoning, but I wonder how good a job they did before. Strangely enough, Fort Wayne hosted the tourney for three years before Kansas City, a couple years before IPFW joined the conference. Allen County War Memorial is a nice size for the tourney if they can get butts in seats(13k).

[filbert]

Re: Will Summit tourney stay in Sioux Falls?

I think that if the current membership stays largely intact we're likely to see the conference tournament site basically alternating for stretches in the Dakotas (i.e. Sioux Falls or Fargo) and in the Michigan-Indiana-Illinois cluster (most likely Ft. Wayne rather than Detroit, Indianapolis, or the Quad Cities, quite honestly), with an occasional diversion to Tulsa mixed in there.

(The reason I put the eastern site in Ft. Wayne is that the other three--Detroit, Indy, Quad Cities, are really, really hard-core Big 10 home towns -- Michigan/MSU; Purdue/IU; and Iowa/Illinois, respectively - and the league has adequate experience trying to carve out a niche in a town already owned by a BCS league--Kansas City. Best to avoid the head-to-head in favor of cities where you'll be able to generate more excitement than yawns.)

[Hammersmith]

Re: Will Summit tourney stay in Sioux Falls?

Okay, more than a few inaccuracies in this thread. I don't want to quote three or four messages, so I trust you'll be able to figure out which post I'm referring to by context.


First, the Fargodome can be used to host the Summit tourney. The NCAA uses a way to determine what is a school's home court, and I'm sure the Summit follows it. A home court is one that a school plays at least half of its home games at, and a DI school must play at least one third of its total games at that location. As long as NDSU only plays a couple games or less at the Fargodome, it can host the Summit tourney. Where NDSU plays football has absolutely nothing to do with it.

The Fargodome has not bid on the tourney to this point because of pre-existing contracts. The ND state basketball tournament has been held in the Fargodome for the last couple years and will be there for a year or two more before rotating to another city. That took up one of the two possible weekends. The other weekend was taken up by an annual sporting show that is scheduled several years in advance and the current contract runs through 2011. The FD management hasn't come right out and said it, but they've hinted strongly that they will be keeping the Summit tourney weekend open when the next round of negotiations are up for the various events. Expect strong competition from Fargo for the 2013-14 tourney.


Regarding the profitability of a FD arena addition, zooropa doesn't seem to understand the current concert touring situation or the particulars of Fargo and the Fargodome. When first built, the Fargodome was making between a half million and three-quarter million a year. That dropped to a break-even level during the early part of this decade and has only slightly improved since then. So what happened? In the 90's, big touring acts were commonplace. The Fargodome was able to land at least a couple concerts a year that needed the full floor setup(15k-25k). Then the industry changed. The tech bubble crash followed by 9/11 and the resulting conflicts in the Middle East drove up travel expenses and drove down purchases of expensive concert tickets. The number of big concert tours plummeted. Additionally, the ones that did still tour stayed in the major markets like Chicago, Denver and Minneapolis. Things were starting to improve until the latest economic crises.

The current touring market favors two models. The first is a smaller number of very big concerts in major markets. The Fargodome isn't big enough for these types and there aren't enough people in the area even if it was. Those concerts will stay in Minneapolis before flying over us to Denver or Las Vegas. The second model is a larger number of smaller concerts(5k-10k) in a variety of markets. The Fargodome isn't well suited for these types. Even the half-house configuration seats 12k.

Since the Fargodome has to keep its rates comparable to other larger venues(or lose major bargaining power with the big concerts), it's getting undercut by the Alerus and Ralph in Grand Forks, as well as venues in Winnipeg and Sioux Falls. What Fargo needs is a venue that fills the gap between the Fargo Civic Center(3k) and the FD half-house(12k). The Urban Plains Center does a little of that(and has made the whole situation a lot more complex), but it only seats around 5k, still leaving a gap. The FD arena was meant to fill the void and bring those smaller concerts to Fargo as well as serving as a home to Bison Basketball. Economic studies showed that the arena would at least break even and might make up to a million a year beyond the current FD(the study looked at both facilities as a unit). The project was so close to happening before the economy tanked.


As for the FD fund, there is zero chance that would be used to bankroll the Summit bid. Just like Sioux Falls, the money would come from the city and corporate sponsors like Microsoft, Bank of the West, US Bank, Gate City Bank, Cargil, Sanford-Meritcare, Noridian, etc. I have no doubts that Fargo will get a shot at the tourney, and I expect it to get the next bid. After four years, the novelty of being in a new city seems to wear off and attendance starts to sag. Maybe SF will buck that trend, but I bet the decision to give Fargo a turn will come before we know if that happens. If SF attendance stays high all the way through its run, then there's a good chance it will return after two years in Fargo(unless attendance in Fargo is significantly higher). The question mark is whether the other Summit schools will cry foul if it stays in the Dakotas for long stretches of time. I think the Summit will deliberately sacrifice money occasionally and move the tourney to another location just to appease them. It might be Indy, Tulsa, Quad Cities, or somewhere else, but I think it will stay there for two years before coming back to the Dakotas(SF or Fargo).

[joeboo22]

Re: Will Summit tourney stay in Sioux Falls?

It is ALL about the money.... I'll agree that if it was pretty close they'd either give it to Sioux Falls or let them match the bid and give it to them but if someone outbids Sioux Falls by a fair amount it is going there..... I just don't see the FargoDome bidding it in the short term. The way I understand is, it is expensive to configure the FargoDome for basketball, and there is some big trade show that is scheduled to take place over that weekend for the next couple of years....

[zooropa]

Re: Will Summit tourney stay in Sioux Falls?

They (the Summit League) Could care less about a new facility its all about money which is why its in SF, otherwise really the SF Arena isn't that great

Assume Fargo & SF bid almost the same---it's not all about the money.

In fact, I'd argue that the Summit would prefer a proven thing at a decrepit basketball facility over a step into the relative unknown and awkward Fargodome.

Another factor: It doesn't seem likely that Fargo would build a basketball facility that can't be used by the Bison during the regular season, in order to maintain eligibility for playoff hosting.

I mean there's a dang poor case for a purpose-built basketball arena in Fargo in the first place. The Fargodome is a more profitable venue for any concert/trade show, which means the basketball facility would be pretty much exclusively a basketball facility (due to the UPC).

So you're looking at millions spent for a facility that will be used a few times a week (if some HS events are there), five months out of the year. Assuming that the Bison play there.

And if the Bison don't play there, it's what? Used for a couple weekends in March, mostly for a tournament that they have to bid for? Build a 10k+ seat facility and then decree that the Bison can't play there, in order to bid on the tournament?

Refurb/replace the BSA.

[goon]

Re: Will Summit tourney stay in Sioux Falls?

They (the Summit League) Could care less about a new facility its all about money which is why its in SF, otherwise really the SF Arena isn't that great

I agree, It might not help, but it sure cant hurt. If someone would bid 10 million clams to play it in a high school gym on the northern most point of Alaska, we would be having the tourny in Alaska no matter what the gym condition would be.

[tjbison]

Re: Will Summit tourney stay in Sioux Falls?

I think it would be great if Sioux Falls and Fargo trade the thing back and forth for the foreseeable future. Either way, it's close by and will be well attended. Let's just keep it away from Tulsa.

Touche

[tjbison]

Re: Will Summit tourney stay in Sioux Falls?

I have no doubt that Fargo could compete with Sioux Falls financially and i would assume Fargo will get a bid someday just to change things up.

But if Sioux Falls gets the new 10-12,000 seat event center built (which could happen by the time the current Sioux Falls SL bid runs out) it would be real difficult for Fargo to convince the Summit League to take the tourney away from a proven site with a brand new basketball-minded arena and put it in a place like the Fargodome which isn't real basketball friendly.

They (the Summit League) Could care less about a new facility its all about money which is why its in SF, otherwise really the SF Arena isn't that great

[JimmyJack]

Re: Will Summit tourney stay in Sioux Falls?

Anybody that thinks Fargo can't compete with SF is wrong, It will be here someday until then SF is hosting a good show I would like it to rotate SF, Fargo, but thats just me

I think it would be great if Sioux Falls and Fargo trade the thing back and forth for the foreseeable future. Either way, it's close by and will be well attended. Let's just keep it away from Tulsa.

[SUPERBUNNY]

Re: Will Summit tourney stay in Sioux Falls?

The Fargodome is not an on-campus facility and not the home court of NDSU...so they wouldn't be eliminated by that rule.

The Ralph might not be either for that matter (I don't know for sure), but UND isn't even in the Summit League so why are we talking about them hosting the tournament.

Maybe it is because the F Dome is home football field. I've been told that under the current rules Fargo isn't eligible due to facility issues.

GB, GB, GJ!

SUPERBUNNY

[jackrabbit1979]

Re: Will Summit tourney stay in Sioux Falls?

Anybody that thinks Fargo can't compete with SF is wrong, It will be here someday until then SF is hosting a good show I would like it to rotate SF, Fargo, but thats just me

I have no doubt that Fargo could compete with Sioux Falls financially and i would assume Fargo will get a bid someday just to change things up.

But if Sioux Falls gets the new 10-12,000 seat event center built (which could happen by the time the current Sioux Falls SL bid runs out) it would be real difficult for Fargo to convince the Summit League to take the tourney away from a proven site with a brand new basketball-minded arena and put it in a place like the Fargodome which isn't real basketball friendly.