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  • #61
    Re: Sanford Health/Summit League relationship

    Originally posted by jacksfan29 View Post
    What happens when the non-Dakota (DU, ORU, WIU, Omaha) get tired of the Summit being pushed by Sanford money to become a Dakota league focused solely on Sioux Falls? This is why so many outside of the Sioux Falls bubble want St. Thomas to get a waiver and move directly to the Summit, hopefully cutting Augustana's fateful D1 flirtation off at the knees. Pretty sure the member schools would all prefer St. Thomas or even UNC over Augustana. The cozy relationship the Summit leaders currently have with Sanford, and specifically Krabbenhoft is not viewed favorably outside the region.
    I understand the perception. So the argument is the league shouldn't allow Augie in because it will be to Dakota centric? We can kick out USD and UND from the conference and see if we can get UC davis and South Hampton Insitute of Technology or New Jersey Tech to join so we can spread out the conference footprint and not appear to be biased as a central point of the conference. sounds more like sour grapes then anything. I would imagine other schools would appreciate the efforts Sioux Falls and Sanford have put into the league to make it stronger. those outliers will leave if they can and it doesn't matter if its Augie or St Thomas joining. Frankly the Summit IMHO should get both St Thomas and Augie because its not like Denver or Western Ill or UMKC will stay if they get other offers. They aren't going to stay because they picked St Thomas over Augie. they would leave either way. If it strengths the league so be it. Maybe its just me but I see the league getting stronger when IUPUI and IPFW and UMKC left. but I am biased. The Summit tourney is a big deal and successful because of Sanford and others pushing to make it that way. If those schools want to avoid corporate dollars they could move the conference tourney to any major US city and have hundreds of fans show up and no corporate sponsors for it. You know, make it fair......
    "The most rewarding things you do in life, are often the ones that look like they cannot be done. Arnold Palmer

    Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things.

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    • #62
      Re: Sanford Health/Summit League relationship

      Originally posted by goon View Post
      I understand the perception. So the argument is the league shouldn't allow Augie in because it will be to Dakota centric? We can kick out USD and UND from the conference and see if we can get UC davis and South Hampton Insitute of Technology or New Jersey Tech to join so we can spread out the conference footprint and not appear to be biased as a central point of the conference. sounds more like sour grapes then anything. I would imagine other schools would appreciate the efforts Sioux Falls and Sanford have put into the league to make it stronger. those outliers will leave if they can and it doesn't matter if its Augie or St Thomas joining. Frankly the Summit IMHO should get both St Thomas and Augie because its not like Denver or Western Ill or UMKC will stay if they get other offers. They aren't going to stay because they picked St Thomas over Augie. they would leave either way. If it strengths the league so be it. Maybe its just me but I see the league getting stronger when IUPUI and IPFW and UMKC left. but I am biased. The Summit tourney is a big deal and successful because of Sanford and others pushing to make it that way. If those schools want to avoid corporate dollars they could move the conference tourney to any major US city and have hundreds of fans show up and no corporate sponsors for it. You know, make it fair......
      This. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. Denver is just jealous.

      Also, I would welcome the S.H.I.T. Sandwiches into the Summit league without a doubt. Love the reference.
      Last edited by CappinHard; 08-19-2019, 10:38 PM. Reason: Added link to give context

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      • #63
        Re: Sanford Health/Summit League relationship

        Originally posted by CappinHard View Post
        This. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. Denver is just jealous.

        Also, I would welcome the S.H.I.T. Sandwiches into the Summit league without a doubt. Love the reference.
        I was hoping someone would catch it.
        "The most rewarding things you do in life, are often the ones that look like they cannot be done. Arnold Palmer

        Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things.

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Sanford Health/Summit League relationship

          Originally posted by goon View Post
          I understand the perception. So the argument is the league shouldn't allow Augie in because it will be to Dakota centric? We can kick out USD and UND from the conference and see if we can get UC davis and South Hampton Insitute of Technology or New Jersey Tech to join so we can spread out the conference footprint and not appear to be biased as a central point of the conference. sounds more like sour grapes then anything. I would imagine other schools would appreciate the efforts Sioux Falls and Sanford have put into the league to make it stronger. those outliers will leave if they can and it doesn't matter if its Augie or St Thomas joining. Frankly the Summit IMHO should get both St Thomas and Augie because its not like Denver or Western Ill or UMKC will stay if they get other offers. They aren't going to stay because they picked St Thomas over Augie. they would leave either way. If it strengths the league so be it. Maybe its just me but I see the league getting stronger when IUPUI and IPFW and UMKC left. but I am biased. The Summit tourney is a big deal and successful because of Sanford and others pushing to make it that way. If those schools want to avoid corporate dollars they could move the conference tourney to any major US city and have hundreds of fans show up and no corporate sponsors for it. You know, make it fair......
          No, I think the perception is that Augie is not capable of being a successful D1 program. A tiny school with a tiny endowment who are being looked at, and may be allowed in based on the Summit being too closely tied to certain Augie supporters. St. Thomas on the other hand is seen as a school capable of coming in, being successful and improving the league. Large school, large endowment, metro area, there is a lot to really like.

          Adding Augie feels forced, a step down for the league. We left D2 for a reason, do we really want to go back there? We can say screw DU, ORU, WIU and Omaha, but if we do, the league is finished.

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Sanford Health/Summit League relationship

            Originally posted by CappinHard View Post
            This. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. Denver is just jealous.
            The Summit League is soooo much bigger than Sanford Health. To think people actually think it'd be acceptable for the league to make decisions based even partially on the opinion of a sponsor/donor is crazy.

            I also wouldn't downplay how other schools feel. People should be concerned about the relationship between Sanford and the Summit. There is potential for some back of the bar type deals that certainly aren't in the best interest of the league. The more and more Dakota-centric the league becomes the harder it's going to be to retain teams outside the area. That's not a good thing. The more the bubble of the league shrinks around Sioux Falls the less and less relevant the league becomes outside the Dakotas and trust me it's already pretty irrelevant. A casual sports fan normally knows one school from the Summit League and it's not SDSU.

            When we went DI I wasn't hoping for a reincarnation of the NCC but we are ever so slowly approaching that reality.

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Sanford Health/Summit League relationship

              Originally posted by MontanaRabbit View Post

              When we went DI I wasn't hoping for a reincarnation of the NCC but we are ever so slowly approaching that reality.
              Most of that reality is simply geography. There just aren't many DI schools in our region, so we have to make the best of what is available.

              I created this Google map of mid-majors a while back to look at options, and there just aren't many out there.

              UNC is a decent fit, but there is little else in the region for options for the Summit.

              UNI, MSU or Drake aren't going to leave the MVC, where else can you look other than DII teams to move up? Arkansas-Little Rock, Central Arkansas, or Arkansas State?

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Sanford Health/Summit League relationship

                Originally posted by MontanaRabbit View Post
                The Summit League is soooo much bigger than Sanford Health. To think people actually think it'd be acceptable for the league to make decisions based even partially on the opinion of a sponsor/donor is crazy.

                I also wouldn't downplay how other schools feel. People should be concerned about the relationship between Sanford and the Summit. There is potential for some back of the bar type deals that certainly aren't in the best interest of the league. The more and more Dakota-centric the league becomes the harder it's going to be to retain teams outside the area. That's not a good thing. The more the bubble of the league shrinks around Sioux Falls the less and less relevant the league becomes outside the Dakotas and trust me it's already pretty irrelevant. A casual sports fan normally knows one school from the Summit League and it's not SDSU.

                When we went DI I wasn't hoping for a reincarnation of the NCC but we are ever so slowly approaching that reality.
                I didn't say that the Summit League isn't bigger than Sanford Health, but Sanford Health is definitely a factor in the conference and most of the schools in the conference (well, now all of them). Do you really think that schools and conferences all around the country aren't making decisions based partially on the opinion of sponsors/donors?

                I agree that there's a potential for some back of the bar type deals, but that's the case whenever big money is involved. Nothing you can do but sit back and hope that the conference does what's best for the rest of the schools in it. Also, like you said, the Summit League isn't that relevant around the country, so who do you think they're going to attract to join them at this point? On one hand you're saying that you think the Summit League is too good for Augie... on the other hand you're saying that the Summit League is irrelevant... which is it? Imo, they're in a position where they have to lure in up and coming schools (like St. Thomas, maybe Augie, and other MN schools that are thinking about the transition), and build from within and hopefully locally.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Sanford Health/Summit League relationship

                  Originally posted by Jacks-02 View Post
                  Most of that reality is simply geography. There just aren't many DI schools in our region, so we have to make the best of what is available.

                  I created this Google map of mid-majors a while back to look at options, and there just aren't many out there.

                  UNC is a decent fit, but there is little else in the region for options for the Summit.

                  UNI, MSU or Drake aren't going to leave the MVC, where else can you look other than DII teams to move up? Arkansas-Little Rock, Central Arkansas, or Arkansas State?
                  Great point. This map is a really good resource and a reality check.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Sanford Health/Summit League relationship

                    Originally posted by CappinHard View Post
                    Great point. This map is a really good resource and a reality check.
                    Looking at it, the Horizon was an absolute no-brainer for PFW, as they are a perfect geographic fit for that conference.

                    What worries me is WIU. They have declining enrollment and a state with huge fiscal problems. The first concern is if they can even remain financially viable in DI, and the second is if they would ever get an invite to the Horizon or Ohio-Valley they'd be gone. We'd then be down yet another member for Summit baseball, and in real danger of losing the auto-bid.

                    So to those who say never Augie, there might not be many alternatives...

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Sanford Health/Summit League relationship

                      Originally posted by CappinHard View Post
                      I didn't say that the Summit League isn't bigger than Sanford Health, but Sanford Health is definitely a factor in the conference and most of the schools in the conference (well, now all of them). Do you really think that schools and conferences all around the country aren't making decisions based partially on the opinion of sponsors/donors?
                      If it's not in the best interest of the school/conference they shouldn't be making a decision to appease a donor/sponsor. I'm sure it happens but that doesn't make it right.

                      Originally posted by CappinHard View Post
                      I agree that there's a potential for some back of the bar type deals, but that's the case whenever big money is involved. Nothing you can do but sit back and hope that the conference does what's best for the rest of the schools in it. Also, like you said, the Summit League isn't that relevant around the country, so who do you think they're going to attract to join them at this point? On one hand you're saying that you think the Summit League is too good for Augie... on the other hand you're saying that the Summit League is irrelevant... which is it? Imo, they're in a position where they have to lure in up and coming schools (like St. Thomas, maybe Augie, and other MN schools that are thinking about the transition), and build from within and hopefully locally.
                      I never said the Summit is too good for Augie. I've never uttered those words. What I do believe is this: I don't think Augie should get into the Summit based solely on the backing of Krabbenhoft and Sanford Health. I firmly believe Krabbenhoft and Sanford Health are pushing that narrative hard. Augie should get in if and only if the league presidents independent of push from Sanford think it's best for the league.

                      I also think Augie will struggle to compete in DI. I think there is this belief that because Augie has done so well in DII the last 10 years or so that'll carry over to DI. The successful years for Augie coincided with SDSU, NDSU, USD, UND, UNO, and UNC leaving to go DI. I don't think that's coincidence. We dominated Augie in men's and women's basketball...I don't see that changing with Sanford money. But, if the league president's think that is the best option I'm all for it. I think it'll negatively affect SDSU and USD more than positively.

                      At the end of the day, Sanford money will make it easier to compete but what happens when that well runs dry? Medical reform is coming to this country and that could completely change how Sanford operates.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Sanford Health/Summit League relationship

                        the Summit league needs to be relevant with what it has to work with. Adding a school from a metro area isn't going to change how the summit league is viewed. winning games in the men's and women's NCAA tourney are what it will take. If we can get a core of school committed to that, and if Augie has the backing to try it that's fine. UMKC came back to the league, I can only imagine how little impact that made in the KC marketplace. We are not going to get schools from the Horizon to join us or MVC.....(I think UNI would only consider it if they have major financial issues and switching to the summit would save money for them). Which in that case having a smaller footprint to keep travel costs down would be a benefit to the league. Maybe Centenary wants to come back so we can spread the conference footprint more.
                        "The most rewarding things you do in life, are often the ones that look like they cannot be done. Arnold Palmer

                        Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Sanford Health/Summit League relationship

                          Originally posted by goon View Post
                          the Summit league needs to be relevant with what it has to work with. Adding a school from a metro area isn't going to change how the summit league is viewed. winning games in the men's and women's NCAA tourney are what it will take. If we can get a core of school committed to that, and if Augie has the backing to try it that's fine. UMKC came back to the league, I can only imagine how little impact that made in the KC marketplace. We are not going to get schools from the Horizon to join us or MVC.....(I think UNI would only consider it if they have major financial issues and switching to the summit would save money for them). Which in that case having a smaller footprint to keep travel costs down would be a benefit to the league. Maybe Centenary wants to come back so we can spread the conference footprint more.
                          I daresay that a D-I St. Thomas would make an infinitely larger splash in the Twin Cities than UMKC could possibly do in KC (short of beating KU & K-State and going to the NCAA Sweet Sixteen all in one season). St. Thomas would be mainly competing with the U of M, the hockey schools, and Wisconsin, and a fairly saturated pro sports market in the Cities. UMKC is trying to compete in KC using men's basketball, and they're up against the University of Kansas and to a somewhat lesser extent Mizzou and K-State. (I've often thought that UMKC should institute baseball or even FCS football if they're really interested in raising their standing in the KC sports market.)

                          And a thought that came to me was that the Sanford pot of gold could in part be used to buy the Summit League into a much better TV/media configuration than the current Midco Sports Net/ESPN3.
                          "I think we'll be OK"

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                          • #73
                            Re: Sanford Health/Summit League relationship

                            Originally posted by filbert View Post
                            I daresay that a D-I St. Thomas would make an infinitely larger splash in the Twin Cities than UMKC could possibly do in KC (short of beating KU & K-State and going to the NCAA Sweet Sixteen all in one season). St. Thomas would be mainly competing with the U of M, the hockey schools, and Wisconsin, and a fairly saturated pro sports market in the Cities. UMKC is trying to compete in KC using men's basketball, and they're up against the University of Kansas and to a somewhat lesser extent Mizzou and K-State. (I've often thought that UMKC should institute baseball or even FCS football if they're really interested in raising their standing in the KC sports market.)

                            And a thought that came to me was that the Sanford pot of gold could in part be used to buy the Summit League into a much better TV/media configuration than the current Midco Sports Net/ESPN3.
                            Call me crazy ("You're Crazy!"), but if St. Thomas goes D-I, could you imagine the possibilities for a D-I intra-cities rivalry with U of M? Not necessarily in Football, but possibly the other sports. That could help build the profile of the League, in addition to having a presence in the Cities.
                            I am Ed. Fear me.

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                            • #74
                              Re: Sanford Health/Summit League relationship

                              For the record. I think Augie and St. Thomas will both be good additions to the conference and if it adds a few more area schools and becomes the rebirth of the NCC that's great too....

                              But...

                              About twenty years ago, St. Charles County built the Family Arena (a bit gloomy for a newer venue but holds over ten thousand for basketball)-- at the time, since the county executive was a hesitant partner there was talk of selling or leasing it to Lindenwood, even though LU has a perfectly adequate on campus arena that seats 3300. Lindenwood was making the move to D2 and there was a lot of talk that they'd just keep moving up and become D1.

                              Then..

                              They got naming rights from SSM Healthcare (slightly larger than Sanford and overlapping another regional health player Mercy. Both run from Oklahoma through St. Louis and up to Illinois and in the case of SSM the Madison area. Both larger totally but definitely seen as second tier to BJC. SSM has the SLU teaching hospital but it's considered pretty second rate compared to Barnes- Wash U.

                              The SSM moniker got stuck to the Family Arena for about a week before SSM backed out because spending money on naming rights pissed off people who were having trouble paying their medical bills BIG TIME. Not sure who's heads rolled for coming up with that idea but I'm sure several of 'em were seeking new challenges for pulling that one.

                              So, if I was in the Summit I'd be forever grateful for Sanford support. If Sanford the organization is a way for Sanford the man to get a deduction more power to them but, why aren't people with unreimbursed medical bills raising hell about this? Seems strange to an outsider. Maybe it was all explained in the Argus article but I've hit my limit for the month.

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                              • #75
                                Re: Sanford Health/Summit League relationship

                                Originally posted by Grizzled_Jack View Post
                                why aren't people with unreimbursed medical bills raising hell about this? Seems strange to an outsider. Maybe it was all explained in the Argus article but I've hit my limit for the month.
                                So you're say they should lower their rates instead?

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