Augie to the Summit?

[jackdaniel]

Re: Augie to the Summit?

I have no information on any of this but of course have a few thoughts.

1. It is really hard to imagine Sanford Health throwing game changing money at Augie for a division one move but then again, the health system seems to throw money around at any number of ridiculous projects.

2. It's not hard to imagine T. Denny the man throwing a big chunk of change at Augie. We are after all talking about the same modest, humble man who "reluctantly" has his name on a health system, a statue out front, his name on buildings and is humbly building himself something like a presidential library. Sanford University or Sanford Augustana University or some iteration is not hard to imagine. The reality is that Augustana is really only a"church" school historically and when planned givers are working potential elderly donars who are not alumni. There is no ministry aspect at schools like Augie anymore. The meager pittance the "ELCA" schools get from the denomination mean nothing to the school's budget. Nearly all private schools started as church affiliated institutions. A sizeable endowment would easily break the final link to the school's parochial past.

3. Don't underestimate a small private school's fundraising ability. I don't fully understand why, after paying 4 or 5 times the tuition for the same degree at the state school alumni feel moved to donate to small, private liberal are schools but they do. Alumni feel more of an ownership in their schools. A case in point is Gustavus in St Peter. Both schools are "ELCA" schools, for what it's worth. Similar in size. GAC probably has a better academic reputation but that might simply be because of its MIAC affiliation and it's Ivy League of the West reputation. At any rate, GAC receives 7 and 8 figure donations on a fairly routine basis. Augie had demonstrated some of that prowess as well.

4. We draw well one weekend in March each year. Where does our attendance compare to our NCC days? I'm too lazy right now to search but I would guess our attendance is generally down. That's not to say our revenue is down as well but even the USD/NDSU rivalry games don't seem to draw well. Having another traditional opponent should help to build casual interest.

I think part of that might be due to the newness of playing the higher standard of Div 1 might be wearing off some.Maybe inflation cutting too far into expendable for entertainment dollars a little.

[Nidaros]

Re: Augie to the Summit?

I have no information on any of this but of course have a few thoughts.

1. It is really hard to imagine Sanford Health throwing game changing money at Augie for a division one move but then again, the health system seems to throw money around at any number of ridiculous projects.

2. It's not hard to imagine T. Denny the man throwing a big chunk of change at Augie. We are after all talking about the same modest, humble man who "reluctantly" has his name on a health system, a statue out front, his name on buildings and is humbly building himself something like a presidential library. Sanford University or Sanford Augustana University or some iteration is not hard to imagine. The reality is that Augustana is really only a"church" school historically and when planned givers are working potential elderly donars who are not alumni. There is no ministry aspect at schools like Augie anymore. The meager pittance the "ELCA" schools get from the denomination mean nothing to the school's budget. Nearly all private schools started as church affiliated institutions. A sizeable endowment would easily break the final link to the school's parochial past.

3. Don't underestimate a small private school's fundraising ability. I don't fully understand why, after paying 4 or 5 times the tuition for the same degree at the state school alumni feel moved to donate to small, private liberal are schools but they do. Alumni feel more of an ownership in their schools. A case in point is Gustavus in St Peter. Both schools are "ELCA" schools, for what it's worth. Similar in size. GAC probably has a better academic reputation but that might simply be because of its MIAC affiliation and it's Ivy League of the West reputation. At any rate, GAC receives 7 and 8 figure donations on a fairly routine basis. Augie had demonstrated some of that prowess as well.

4. We draw well one weekend in March each year. Where does our attendance compare to our NCC days? I'm too lazy right now to search but I would guess our attendance is generally down. That's not to say our revenue is down as well but even the USD/NDSU rivalry games don't seem to draw well. Having another traditional opponent should help to build casual interest.

Comments 1 and 2 I agree with without commenting further and #3 is not a disagreement with me. I might add that the fund raising part is not problem but as former AD Bill Gross found through his informal study, the costs of attendance is very frightening. Private education seems to be by and large tuition driven and that is why Division 3 continues to thrive. The extra costs of athletics is not in their interest. No 4, does not have an easy answer particularly basketball because we no longer have the bargain double hitters except for maybe two each season. Attendance numbers do not compare when the women's and men's events are separate but revenue is much better. That seems to be the problem. Higher ticket prices and cash flowing our of the individual fans pockets. Football is much better at D1 than D2, plus they have bunch of us shelling out 750 per year for 10 years to help pay for the stadium. I expect a similar plan with renovated Frost. I don't think everyone is totally happy with the move to D1, but they are offset by a growing interest I believe. Someone will very quickly correct me on that angle.
Lastly, interesting the comparison made of Augustana and Gustavus. I don't dispute anything you said, but might add both were founded by immigrants. In Augustana case, the Norwegians and in Gustavus by the Swedes, and their purpose were to preserve their language and culture. World War I and the over reaction by Nativism who fear the use of foreign languages in public produced the Sedation Act. There was fear of German spies operating in America. The use of Scandnavian as a second language declined greatly during and after WW1. So yeah a lot of water has went under the bridge in the last 100 years and Augie purpose has changed considerably.

[West-River_Jack]

Re: Augie to the Summit?

Might Augie have an easier shot of initiating hockey though, particularly if FB went non-scholarship?

This would assume they attempted to implement men's and women's hockey simultaneously, thereby satisfying Title IX reqs. for that sport.

Since Augie is a private school, do they have to worry about Title IX?

[filbert]

Re: Augie to the Summit?

Since Augie is a private school, do they have to worry about Title IX?

They accept federal money, so yes.

[Nidaros]

Re: Augie to the Summit?

Since Augie is a private school, do they have to worry about Title IX?

I don't think there are many private schools that do not participate in the Pell Grant Program that is federally funded so that hooks all the D3 and D2 schools and Title IX will not go away by moving up to D1.

[thumper_76]

Re: Augie to the Summit?

[QUOTE=jbjack;330710

4. We draw well one weekend in March each year. Where does our attendance compare to our NCC days? I'm too lazy right now to search but I would guess our attendance is generally down. That's not to say our revenue is down as well but even the USD/NDSU rivalry games don't seem to draw well. Having another traditional opponent should help to build casual interest.[/QUOTE]
From what I’ve read it seems that our attendance has leveled off, but I think there’s a variety of reasons for that. Regional opponents with familiarity would help a bit I’m sure, especially a team as close as Augie. However from what I’ve gathered the two changes that would have a much larger change is scheduling and the renovation of Frost. I think having real seats and not pull out bleachers will have the similar effect as when we got the DJD. The other thing that makes a huge difference is we used to have regular double headers for the conference games and the dates were much more fan friendly (I’m not old enough to have been around, but it’s what I’ve gathered anyways). I really could see our attendance explode if the conference got their head out of their hind end and got scheduling right. Even if our attendance is the same as back then it means our fanbase is far ahead of then just from a double header vs single game standpoint. Especially if you only needed one ticket for both games of the double header. Those changes would result in far greater attendance growth than adding a conference game against a regional school. We could also expanse our “attendance” with how we count like certain places that would look very Christmas-y if you combined their school colors.

Since Augie is a private school, do they have to worry about Title IX?

I have a hard time imagining the NCAA wanting to have the fiasco of a DI school thumbing it’s nose at Title IX, but I have no idea.


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[jacksfan29]

Re: Augie to the Summit?

Might Augie have an easier shot of initiating hockey though, particularly if FB went non-scholarship?

This would assume they attempted to implement men's and women's hockey simultaneously, thereby satisfying Title IX reqs. for that sport.

Hockey is a crazy expensive sport. UND spends $4.5 million to put a high caliber team on the ice. I don't now what Omaha spends but if I recall, DU spends over $5 million. No way a D1 Augustana could field a hockey team.

[Nidaros]

Re: Augie to the Summit?

Hockey is a crazy expensive sport. UND spends $4.5 million to put a high caliber team on the ice. I don't now what Omaha spends but if I recall, DU spends over $5 million. No way a D1 Augustana could field a hockey team.

Yes it’s wishful thinking by those casual fans who think that their ticket pays the bill in full.

[91jack]

Re: Augie to the Summit?

I think part of that might be due to the newness of playing the higher standard of Div 1 might be wearing off some.Maybe inflation cutting too far into expendable for entertainment dollars a little.

I think there are several reasons why attendance is down at SDSU basketball games.
1) Ticket prices- Tickets probably cost more than double now than what they cost for a doubleheader in DII days.
2) Game times and dates- Back in the NCC days, there would be doubleheader every other (roughly) Friday and Saturday night. Now you have games on any given night of the week. If you have to travel for a game how many times can you drive an hour plus to watch a game on week nights?
3) TV- Most of the home games are on Midco so why travel and spend the big bucks if you can sit at home and watch the game for free on your TV.
4) Opponents- SDSU used to play teams that were within a 4 hour drive so you could travel to watch a game if you wanted to. I'm not saying the other team brought 2,000 fans but they brought a lot more than they do now.
5) Players- SDSU used to have several local players so people wanted to watch how their local high school stud or some SD talent was doing in college. I think after next year, SDSU will have one SD player on the roster. This one might not matter to some people but I think it does to others.
6) Other priorities- Now kids start getting into several activities at much younger ages. If parents are chasing their kids around they don't have time to go to the games twice a week.

I'm sure there are more reasons but I don't know what they all are.
I also wonder if the 10-18, 9-20, 7-24, 8-21, 13-20 and 14-16 teams did for turning fans off and they just moved on to other things, too.
Students don't come to games very often and most of the excuses that I listed above don't apply to them so maybe it has nothing to do with any of those reasons.

[goon]

Re: Augie to the Summit?

I think there are several reasons why attendance is down at SDSU basketball games.
1) Ticket prices- Tickets probably cost more than double now than what they cost for a doubleheader in DII days.
2) Game times and dates- Back in the NCC days, there would be doubleheader every other (roughly) Friday and Saturday night. Now you have games on any given night of the week. If you have to travel for a game how many times can you drive an hour plus to watch a game on week nights?
3) TV- Most of the home games are on Midco so why travel and spend the big bucks if you can sit at home and watch the game for free on your TV.
4) Opponents- SDSU used to play teams that were within a 4 hour drive so you could travel to watch a game if you wanted to. I'm not saying the other team brought 2,000 fans but they brought a lot more than they do now.
5) Players- SDSU used to have several local players so people wanted to watch how their local high school stud or some SD talent was doing in college. I think after next year, SDSU will have one SD player on the roster. This one might not matter to some people but I think it does to others.
6) Other priorities- Now kids start getting into several activities at much younger ages. If parents are chasing their kids around they don't have time to go to the games twice a week.

I'm sure there are more reasons but I don't know what they all are.
I also wonder if the 10-18, 9-20, 7-24, 8-21, 13-20 and 14-16 teams did for turning fans off and they just moved on to other things, too.
Students don't come to games very often and most of the excuses that I listed above don't apply to them so maybe it has nothing to do with any of those reasons.

I was going to reply and basically had the same list. I feel they are all factors why its down now across the board. At the same time families in the 90s had kids with activities and other obligations so that might be something that's always been a factor. I can say I work evenings a few nights a week, 3 kids part time job, kids in sports and activities I will tell you the games that I am interested in are the few double headers we have had.

The one you didn't mention is other entertainment options, concerts and other events people can go to that all compete for a persons entertainment budget. I don't know that many people that can afford to go to every concert and sporting event with out question. its expensive and a huge time commitment. If you live around SF there are a lot of things trying to get you to spend your free cash or expendable income on.

The issue with college students I think is frankly, many don't care, and the other excuse has been there for ever, they don't know when the games are. Which I find crazy because its not hard to look up or google a schedule, they used to be posted around campus and I felt always advertised but I don't think many really ever paid attention to it.

[Southeast]

Re: Augie to the Summit?

You guys have hit on a lot of likely causes for the attendance situation. It’s not one simple thing. Anyone expecting a shiny upgrade to Frost to make a big difference is going to be disappointed. The past five years have shown that winning doesn’t matter much - nor do top level stars. I don’t think more local talent would either - not these days. The same has been true in Vermillion - who now has to inflate their numbers to an ORU level of silliness in spite of an amazing arena and very good teams. So many empty brand-new seats.

TV is undoubtedly a big factor. It’s so easy now - especially for those of us an hour out or more. I know that reduces my trips to Brookings by at least three or four.

Tying it back to Augie - they would sure have a ton of people within a 15 minute drive. Big potential if things take off.

[CappinHard]

Re: Augie to the Summit?

You guys have hit on a lot of likely causes for the attendance situation. It’s not one simple thing. Anyone expecting a shiny upgrade to Frost to make a big difference is going to be disappointed.

I think it will make A difference, I just don't know how big of a difference. I will definitely attend more games if I can get my 2 kids in the door with their junior jacks passes and not have to sit in those terrible bleachers. The problem I always had, and I'm sure many other families had, was that if you wanted to sit in the actual seats, you couldn't use junior jacks passes, you had to buy a ticket for every one, so that changed the numbers of tickets I had to buy from 2 to 4. I went less often because of this without a doubt.

[Mr_Tibbs]

Re: Augie to the Summit?

Attendance at basketball games is a unique challenge compared to football. BBall games don't have the tailgating, nice fall weather (usually), and full day activities that football has. In Bball, there's not an awful lot of "game day" things that can be added to help draw in more people. I don't know what it will take to change that.

If I'm being honest though, Wednesday or Thursday night games against IPFW, IUPUI, and ORU are just boring. The games themselves might be exciting, but the match up and the weeknight just doesn't move the needle for me. I really don't know if that changes at all with a different conference. Our students probably don't care much more about Missouri State than they do IPFW, especially not on a weeknight.
Short of being in the BIG 10/12, are there any weeknight games against non-local teams that would generate enough interest to bump our average season attendance by 1000 or more?

My point is, I think most weeknight mid major conference games are pretty uninspiring. If I'm a student at Montana State, do I care if the bobcats are playing Southern Utah on Wednesday evening? Probably not.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I think there are a combination of factors that aren't helping. Lack of local schools is a part, differences in how college students participate in college activities now and the weeknight games also impact it.

Augie will have a much larger population close by to rely on to fill their gym on weeknights than Brookings does, and that could be a huge difference. But they haven't yet been faced with Wednesday night games against IPFW, and it's possible they might see their numbers drop some when faced with no more double headers, fewer local teams, and weeknight games.

[Jacked_Up]

Re: Augie to the Summit?

Colleges and universities in South Dakota, Iowa, Minnesota and Nebraska have been trying to expand their student, fan and donor base in Sioux Falls for years. As a small, high-priced, private, Lutheran school, Augie will never be the major force in the market. SDSU and USD are in the strongest positions to dominate. However, public loyalties are too divided among multiple institutions for any school to substantially own the market, especially a newbie that, at best, is years away from advancing to D-1.

[Nidaros]

Re: Augie to the Summit?

Attendance at basketball games is a unique challenge compared to football. BBall games don't have the tailgating, nice fall weather (usually), and full day activities that football has. In Bball, there's not an awful lot of "game day" things that can be added to help draw in more people. I don't know what it will take to change that.

If I'm being honest though, Wednesday or Thursday night games against IPFW, IUPUI, and ORU are just boring. The games themselves might be exciting, but the match up and the weeknight just doesn't move the needle for me. I really don't know if that changes at all with a different conference. Our students probably don't care much more about Missouri State than they do IPFW, especially not on a weeknight.
Short of being in the BIG 10/12, are there any weeknight games against non-local teams that would generate enough interest to bump our average season attendance by 1000 or more?

My point is, I think most weeknight mid major conference games are pretty uninspiring. If I'm a student at Montana State, do I care if the bobcats are playing Southern Utah on Wednesday evening? Probably not.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I think there are a combination of factors that aren't helping. Lack of local schools is a part, differences in how college students participate in college activities now and the weeknight games also impact it.

Augie will have a much larger population close by to rely on to fill their gym on weeknights than Brookings does, and that could be a huge difference. But they haven't yet been faced with Wednesday night games against IPFW, and it's possible they might see their numbers drop some when faced with no more double headers, fewer local teams, and weeknight games.

I think Augustana University is doing just fine in the SF Arena at the D2 level and maybe that will be AD Morton's conclusion as well. The days of double hitters are over and that was certainly a fan bargain, but maybe too much of one.