Would you support SDSU moving the MVC? (poll)

[da_coach]

Re: Would you support SDSU moving the MVC? (poll)

When it comes to conferences, it's always helpful to look "Top Down"...

So, The ACC has 15 schools (counting ND who is ACC for everything but FB)
The Big 10 has 14 schools
The PAC 12 has 12 schools
The SEC has 14 schools
The American has 13 Schools
The Mountain West has 12

But, the Big 12 only has 10. (This is the only Power 5 Conference that doesn't have 12? coincidentally)

So, Do the Big 12 look to add people from the American or the Mountain West? They would need to have FB.

This where where the dominoes begin to topple. Then the American or Mountain West could look to poach someone from the MVC and/or the Summit.

All of the Power 5 Schools are going to "want" to have 12 teams, so they can possibly "break away" from the NCAA, which was a rumor a few years back.

That is what we need to be worried about... whether it's the Summit, or the MVC.

(Which is why I stand by my idea of combining the Summit and the MVC into a "super conference" so they could withstand those defections. I don't want to lose the tournament, either. But, I'm just trying to be realistic.

[KUlawJack]

Re: Would you support SDSU moving the MVC? (poll)

When it comes to conferences, it's always helpful to look "Top Down"...

So, The ACC has 15 schools (counting ND who is ACC for everything but FB)
The Big 10 has 14 schools
The PAC 12 has 12 schools
The SEC has 14 schools
The American has 13 Schools
The Mountain West has 12

But, the Big 12 only has 10. (This is the only Power 5 Conference that doesn't have 12? coincidentally)

So, Do the Big 12 look to add people from the American or the Mountain West? They would need to have FB.

This where where the dominoes begin to topple. Then the American or Mountain West could look to poach someone from the MVC and/or the Summit.

All of the Power 5 Schools are going to "want" to have 12 teams, so they can possibly "break away" from the NCAA, which was a rumor a few years back.

That is what we need to be worried about... whether it's the Summit, or the MVC.

(Which is why I stand by my idea of combining the Summit and the MVC into a "super conference" so they could withstand those defections. I don't want to lose the tournament, either. But, I'm just trying to be realistic.

Big 12 won't be looking for a number of years unless it is an absolute home run. All the schools signed a grant of rights agreement and that is holding them together for now.

[Justwin]

Re: Would you support SDSU moving the MVC? (poll)

In reality teams change conferences for 1 reason and it's not for better competition or a league with a higher RPI.......It's about $$$$. Either saving some or gaining some.

[Mr_Tibbs]

Re: Would you support SDSU moving the MVC? (poll)

For the "Let's sit tight and work on making the summit better" crowd, who are you going to realistically add to this conference to make it better? Where we are, both in the pecking order and geographically, dictates that the kinds of schools we could add to "strengthen" the conference are 1) Few in number, 2) Out of area geographically, 3) Not competitive, or 4) Have no fan support. In some cases, candidates for addition are all of those things. A D2 move up isn't going to strengthen the conference much at all. When NDSU, USD, and Omaha (and soon to be SDSU) have all updated facilities, that will help some. But Omaha has low fan support as is, and facilities alone aren't going to make the summit attractive to the kind of schools that could actually "strengthen" the league. In saying all that, I don't mean to imply that SDSU should be actively seeking to jump ship. I just think that the idea that the summit is going to become a premier mid major league or that the conference will strengthen with time is completely null and void, given the conference's history, and the utter lack of realistic schools that could be added to make this league better.

[OldHare]

Re: Would you support SDSU moving the MVC? (poll)

For the "Let's sit tight and work on making the summit better" crowd, who are you going to realistically add to this conference to make it better? Where we are, both in the pecking order and geographically, dictates that the kinds of schools we could add to "strengthen" the conference are 1) Few in number, 2) Out of area geographically, 3) Not competitive, or 4) Have no fan support. In some cases, candidates for addition are all of those things. A D2 move up isn't going to strengthen the conference much at all. When NDSU, USD, and Omaha (and soon to be SDSU) have all updated facilities, that will help some. But Omaha has low fan support as is, and facilities alone aren't going to make the summit attractive to the kind of schools that could actually "strengthen" the league. In saying all that, I don't mean to imply that SDSU should be actively seeking to jump ship. I just think that the idea that the summit is going to become a premier mid major league or that the conference will strengthen with time is completely null and void, given the conference's history, and the utter lack of realistic schools that could be added to make this league better.

I resemble this remark. The question of who to add is not as important right now as where do you think SDSU is headed in 1-3 or 5 years? Meanwhile, I believe it is a very poor direction to not work improving the current situation. The neighborhood is not so dismal as to not replace the shingles when it is needed or replace the door when it is letting in a draft. Woe is me and where can I go is not a direction. Whether you leave or stay, ignoring your conference environment is not a choice. Just because the Summit is different today than 10 years ago does not make it null and void. I would think there are many improvements. If Douple makes it go backwards, then leadership will be changed. It is clear that there is not a bunch of open conflict with the ADs and presidents. What did IUPUI add to the Horizon other than a school in the home office city of the league? Or maybe one less search for an OOC game. That choice illustrates your point of a lack of realistic schools. Also, the Omaha low fan support may be a bit premature. They may be higher attendance than many(most). I will report back with those numbers.

[OldHare]

Re: Would you support SDSU moving the MVC? (poll)

Current attendance figures for Summit teams are listed. ORU and USD may be using total tickets sold as attendance. There may be others using that method, but I have not heard.
NDSU 2274
ORU 2184
Omaha 2114
USD 2013
SDSU 1701
Denver 1263
Ft Wayne 1234
WIU 811

[NebraskaJack]

Re: Would you support SDSU moving the MVC? (poll)

I resemble this remark. The question of who to add is not as important right now as where do you think SDSU is headed in 1-3 or 5 years? Meanwhile, I believe it is a very poor direction to not work improving the current situation. The neighborhood is not so dismal as to not replace the shingles when it is needed or replace the door when it is letting in a draft. Woe is me and where can I go is not a direction. Whether you leave or stay, ignoring your conference environment is not a choice. Just because the Summit is different today than 10 years ago does not make it null and void. I would think there are many improvements. If Douple makes it go backwards, then leadership will be changed. It is clear that there is not a bunch of open conflict with the ADs and presidents. What did IUPUI add to the Horizon other than a school in the home office city of the league? Or maybe one less search for an OOC game. That choice illustrates your point of a lack of realistic schools. Also, the Omaha low fan support may be a bit premature. They may be higher attendance than many(most). I will report back with those numbers.

The only thing IUPUI provided is stability to a conference that had a team poached (Valpo) and most likely will have another one poached this year or next. IPFW will provide them with more stability on the next move.

[Mr_Tibbs]

Re: Would you support SDSU moving the MVC? (poll)

I resemble this remark. The question of who to add is not as important right now as where do you think SDSU is headed in 1-3 or 5 years? Meanwhile, I believe it is a very poor direction to not work improving the current situation. The neighborhood is not so dismal as to not replace the shingles when it is needed or replace the door when it is letting in a draft. Woe is me and where can I go is not a direction. Whether you leave or stay, ignoring your conference environment is not a choice. Just because the Summit is different today than 10 years ago does not make it null and void. I would think there are many improvements. If Douple makes it go backwards, then leadership will be changed. It is clear that there is not a bunch of open conflict with the ADs and presidents. What did IUPUI add to the Horizon other than a school in the home office city of the league? Or maybe one less search for an OOC game. That choice illustrates your point of a lack of realistic schools. Also, the Omaha low fan support may be a bit premature. They may be higher attendance than many(most). I will report back with those numbers.

So what does the above bolded mean? What is an example of "replacing the shingles" in the context of this discussion. Philisophical arguments about routine maintenance aside, what concrete things can be done in this conference to improve it? Increasing budgets? Maybe, but that's up to each member school to commit to. Increasing fan support at each school? That might be an uphill battle, to say the least.

You are correct that "woe is me" is not a direction. But the context of this poll is whether or not you would be in favor of SDSU moving to the MVC, if given the opportunity. No amount of "replacing the shingles" is going to make the summit more attractive or stable than the MVC. The only way to do that is to upgrade membership in the summit, and the schools simply do not exist out there that are going to do that.
My point is that the primary two arguments for not going to the MVC are 1) Summit tournament, and 2) the summit will become stronger/more attractive than the MVC. The first point should not hold us back from moving into a better long term situation, and the second point is pie in the sky if you ask me. The summit is not destined to become the more attractive conference with the likes of UMKC, GCU, UIC, UT Arlington, D2 move ups, etc., all of whom represent the only realistic additions out there for the Summit.

If the question is whether or not we should move to the MVC, I don't know how you can objectively say that it's a better long term plan to stay in the summit, short of a large and unlikely conference realignment, if an offer was extended to SDSU. The summit is a revolving door, in chronic danger of losing its baseball (and therefore basketball) bid, made up mostly of schools that are the third or fourth tier in their markets. A league that strenches from the Indiana/Michigan border to Colorado, and from Tulsa, Oklahoma to the Canadian border is the definition of hodge podge. There's no way that's going to be sustainable in the long run.

If the question is simply, "should we invest in making the summit better?", I agree that we should invest in it and that there's a lot of upside in doing so. But 1) I'm not sure how we realistically do that, and 2) That's not the question being asked in this thread.

[thumper_76]

Re: Would you support SDSU moving the MVC? (poll)

So what does the above bolded mean? What is an example of "replacing the shingles" in the context of this discussion. Philisophical arguments about routine maintenance aside, what concrete things can be done in this conference to improve it? Increasing budgets? Maybe, but that's up to each member school to commit to. Increasing fan support at each school? That might be an uphill battle, to say the least.

You are correct that "woe is me" is not a direction. But the context of this poll is whether or not you would be in favor of SDSU moving to the MVC, if given the opportunity. No amount of "replacing the shingles" is going to make the summit more attractive or stable than the MVC. The only way to do that is to upgrade membership in the summit, and the schools simply do not exist out there that are going to do that.
My point is that the primary two arguments for not going to the MVC are 1) Summit tournament, and 2) the summit will become stronger/more attractive than the MVC. The first point should not hold us back from moving into a better long term situation, and the second point is pie in the sky if you ask me. The summit is not destined to become the more attractive conference with the likes of UMKC, GCU, UIC, UT Arlington, D2 move ups, etc., all of whom represent the only realistic additions out there for the Summit.

If the question is whether or not we should move to the MVC, I don't know how you can objectively say that it's a better long term plan to stay in the summit, short of a large and unlikely conference realignment, if an offer was extended to SDSU. The summit is a revolving door, in chronic danger of losing its baseball (and therefore basketball) bid, made up mostly of schools that are the third or fourth tier in their markets. A league that strenches from the Indiana/Michigan border to Colorado, and from Tulsa, Oklahoma to the Canadian border is the definition of hodge podge. There's no way that's going to be sustainable in the long run.

If the question is simply, "should we invest in making the summit better?", I agree that we should invest in it and that there's a lot of upside in doing so. But 1) I'm not sure how we realistically do that, and 2) That's not the question being asked in this thread.

Nailed it. This discussion to me is like arguing we should have stayed in the Great West for football. Could we have become what we are today there? Sure, possibly. But the ceiling was higher in a good conference like the MVFC that we were able to help make the premier conference in the country. I personally feel that we will raise the level of whatever mid major conference we join, but I feel the level that the MVC can rise to is much, much higher than the Summit.



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[BTownJack]

Re: Would you support SDSU moving the MVC? (poll)

Nailed it. This discussion to me is like arguing we should have stayed in the Great West for football. Could we have become what we are today there? Sure, possibly. But the ceiling was higher in a good conference like the MVFC that we were able to help make the premier conference in the country. I personally feel that we will raise the level of whatever mid major conference we join, but I feel the level that the MVC can rise to is much, much higher than the Summit.

Same could also be said that this argument is also very similar to if we should have moved to D-I or not....that has turned out pretty well for us I'd say.

[OldHare]

Re: Would you support SDSU moving the MVC? (poll)

I thought I was in tinsel town when the standing ovation broke out. It is certainly a make believe world that has the concept that the Dakota schools are on the short list for the MVC in the near future whether they would bring value to another 1 bid league or not. I took a personal poll and asked if I thought I deserved a million dollars. Early results are yes I do. The new shingles in the Summit have replaced Centenary, So Utah, Oakland, and UMKC. I saw Denver, UNO, USD, and UND arrive. Give Douple credit for that unless you can prove otherwise. ORU has left and returned. You can flip the coin on that one. Also, flip a coin on the odds the Big 12 will call. The question of whether SDSU should move to the MVC is nothing but a time filler before the ORU game even though I am still serious about wanting that million dollars.

[Nidaros]

Re: Would you support SDSU moving the MVC? (poll)

I thought I was in tinsel town when the standing ovation broke out. It is certainly a make believe world that has the concept that the Dakota schools are on the short list for the MVC in the near future whether they would bring value to another 1 bid league or not. I took a personal poll and asked if I thought I deserved a million dollars. Early results are yes I do. The new shingles in the Summit have replaced Centenary, So Utah, Oakland, and UMKC. I saw Denver, UNO, USD, and UND arrive. Give Douple credit for that unless you can prove otherwise. ORU has left and returned. You can flip the coin on that one. Also, flip a coin on the odds the Big 12 will call. The question of whether SDSU should move to the MVC is nothing but a time filler before the ORU game even though I am still serious about wanting that million dollars.

I cannot give deserving rep pts.but I am in full agreement with your post. We are lucky to have Tom Douple who does not have trouble finding his way to Sioux Falls from suburban Chicago, Elmhurst which is just south of Chicago O’Hare. We are not on the on the big map of things. We are west of Iowa City which is way west.

[NebraskaJack]

Re: Would you support SDSU moving the MVC? (poll)

I thought I was in tinsel town when the standing ovation broke out. It is certainly a make believe world that has the concept that the Dakota schools are on the short list for the MVC in the near future whether they would bring value to another 1 bid league or not. I took a personal poll and asked if I thought I deserved a million dollars. Early results are yes I do. The new shingles in the Summit have replaced Centenary, So Utah, Oakland, and UMKC. I saw Denver, UNO, USD, and UND arrive. Give Douple credit for that unless you can prove otherwise. ORU has left and returned. You can flip the coin on that one. Also, flip a coin on the odds the Big 12 will call. The question of whether SDSU should move to the MVC is nothing but a time filler before the ORU game even though I am still serious about wanting that million dollars.

Just for the record, I fully agree with you that an invite is not coming our way. The conversation of whether we should accept it or not is just as fruitful as helping you decide how to spend your million dollars. My point of contention has always been the stability/viability of the Summit long term, but I will also agree with you that Douple has guided us through so far. I will be very curious to see what he has in mind this time. It should be an interesting couple of years with more transition destined to happen.

[jacksfan29]

Re: Would you support SDSU moving the MVC? (poll)

Sure you could, but not very well. so who are we replacing the Indiana schools with that are so desirable then? IPFW likely leaves next year, and we just lost one of the conferences founding members. So that's two we need to replace. UMKC is not how to improve the conference.

Here's the thing I've said before. All of us xdsu fans look and compare the relative strengths of the Summit vs the MVC with the xDSUs in the Summit. That's not an accurate equation then. If you're going to compare the conferences you need to compare both conferences either without the xDSUs or with the xDSUs. So the Summit is just getting to be on par with the MVC with xDSUs right? Now put us in the MVC. The MVC would be better, and it's not close. The xDSUs have brought the quality of their conferences up drastically no matter what one they are in. Now what conference has the higher ceiling do you think? Probably the one with a bunch of programs that dump money into their teams and have a past history of winning in the tourney and being nationally ranked.


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Personally I think SDSU leaving the MVC would be a good thing in the long term. But, we need a partner and the Valley will never invite NDSU. If we would ever get an invite into the MVC, I believe it will be with USD not NDSU. NDSU is a football school that plays pretty good basketball. Their women's BB program is atrocious and, they are WAY too far north to be considered for an MVC invite. In some ways, NDSU's success on the football field will kill any chance they have of ever seeing an invite into the MVC.

[BTownJack]

Re: Would you support SDSU moving the MVC? (poll)

Personally I think SDSU leaving the MVC would be a good thing in the long term. But, we need a partner and the Valley will never invite NDSU. If we would ever get an invite into the MVC, I believe it will be with USD not NDSU. NDSU is a football school that plays pretty good basketball. Their women's BB program is atrocious and, they are WAY too far north to be considered for an MVC invite. In some ways, NDSU's success on the football field will kill any chance they have of ever seeing an invite into the MVC.

There is a lot more to this equation than football and basketball. Like - A LOT more. While you aren't off on your view, it is rather short sighted. One of my favorite quotes:

"Always and never are two words you should always remember never to use"
- Wendall Johnson

Even on an internet message board.