Men's NCAA 2015 Tournament Summit league journey (NDSU Bison)

[FargoBison]

Re: Men's NCAA 2015 Tournament Summit league journey (NDSU Bison)

Objection. Assertion of facts not in evidence.

And, on this board, the rule is "address posts, not posters."

I kind of apologize for breaking that rule but I kind of don't. It is impossible to argue with somebody that doesn't believe in the process and metrics that are used and honestly refuses to give them any credence. In zooropa's world SDSU will have always gotten screwed and apparently NDSU gifted a seed they didn't deserve. Hard to change somebody's harden belief even though I may agree that SDSU got a tough break in at least one of those seasons and I probably said as much at the time.

So with that I am done with this topic.

[slosho]

Re: Men's NCAA 2015 Tournament Summit league journey (NDSU Bison)

prima facie,

Thanks for making me smarter, Rich.

The more you know...

[zooropa]

Re: Men's NCAA 2015 Tournament Summit league journey (NDSU Bison)

It is impossible to argue with somebody that doesn't believe in the process and metrics that are used.

It is not impossible. All you do is furnish logical arguments based on verifiable data which suggests the validity of SOS as a predictor of performance, and therefore, the wisdom of the committee in using that metric.

I would gladly entertain verifiable data and logical arguments in support of SOS over, say the Pomeroy rating system, Jeff Sagrin's ratings, or even Massey or the BPI.

Do you have any?

P.S. Tautologies, circular logic, and goal-post moving ("No True Scotsman") are no more valid than ad hominem responses.

P.P.S. After doing a bit of research, the 2012/13 SDSU team was pretty consistently ranked lower than the 2011/12 team. The 2011/12 team after losing to Baylor, was at 62 on Ken Pom (.7494)/64 Sagarin (80.79). NDSU, after beating Oklahoma, was also at 62 on Ken Pom (.7469)/64 Sagarin (80.59).

So I'm going to alter my original claim regarding the relative merits of the 12/13 Wolters team and the '14 NDSU team. At the same time, it seems pretty self-evident that the '12 SDSU team was better than the '14 NDSU team going into the tourney. Certainly, it was significantly better than its #14 seed.

[witness]

Re: Men's NCAA 2015 Tournament Summit league journey (NDSU Bison)

In zooropa's world SDSU will have always gotten screwed and apparently NDSU gifted a seed they didn't deserve. Hard to change somebody's harden belief even though I may agree that SDSU got a tough break in at least one of those seasons and I probably said as much at the time.

So with that I am done with this topic.

Playing against Gonzaga is a better matchup than any that the Jacks have had and NDSU was a 15 seed

[FargoBison]

Re: Men's NCAA 2015 Tournament Summit league journey (NDSU Bison)

Playing against Gonzaga is a better matchup than any that the Jacks have had and NDSU was a 15 seed

Playing against Gonzaga in Seattle was like SDSU playing against Michigan in Detroit.

Yeah, when you got that draw I felt bad for you guys it was brutal.

[witness]

Re: Men's NCAA 2015 Tournament Summit league journey (NDSU Bison)

Playing against Gonzaga in Seattle was like SDSU playing against Michigan in Detroit.

Yeah, when you got that draw I felt bad for you guys it was brutal.

I would have loved to have the Jacks play Gonzaga even if it was in Seattle.

[MontanaRabbit]

Re: Men's NCAA 2015 Tournament Summit league journey (NDSU Bison)

Playing against Gonzaga in Seattle was like SDSU playing against Michigan in Detroit.

Yeah, when you got that draw I felt bad for you guys it was brutal.

Keep in mind Michigan made it to the title game that year and was preseason #1. That team was loaded.

I'm not sold on Gonzaga being as good as that Michigan team.

[witness]

Re: Men's NCAA 2015 Tournament Summit league journey (NDSU Bison)

Keep in mind Michigan made it to the title game that year and was preseason #1. That team was loaded.

I'm not sold on Gonzaga being as good as that Michigan team.

The Baylor team made it to the Final Four too. Just brutal draws

[MontanaRabbit]

Re: Men's NCAA 2015 Tournament Summit league journey (NDSU Bison)

The Baylor team made it to the Final Four too. Just brutal draws

Elite eight

[HandoEX]

Re: Men's NCAA 2015 Tournament Summit league journey (NDSU Bison)

Gonzaga's D is so bad

This was the highest oppenent FG% against Gonzaga in their last 132 games. Gonzaga held opponents to the 19th worst shooting percentage in the country.

[witness]

Re: Men's NCAA 2015 Tournament Summit league journey (NDSU Bison)

This was the highest oppenent FG% against Gonzaga in their last 132 games. Gonzaga held opponents to the 19th worst shooting percentage in the country.

You check the teams they played? SOS of 84. Gonzaga isn't a great defensive team and Wiltjer still has cement shoes on defense. Oh, and no I'm not jealous at all. Just think that I would have loved to have the Jacks play against Gonzaga instead of you know contenders

[ndsubison1]

Re: Men's NCAA 2015 Tournament Summit league journey (NDSU Bison)

Unfortunately upset statistics do not agree with you. If anything, they suggest that the committee has always done a bad job with seeding, and that instead of getting better, they are getting worse.

However, the worse they do at seeding, the more "exciting" the tournament gets. When the committee does a bad job, more upsets happen.

And the only price they have to pay is the legitimate grumbling of a negligible collection of small school fan bases.



The ranking of SOS is irrelevant to my three points which are:

1 - That NDSU did not set out to have a significantly harder schedule in '13/14.

2 - That SOS is, by any conceivable analysis, a deeply flawed metric

3 - That the committee's reliance on a deeply flawed metric is, prima facie, deeply flawed.

i remember Saul stating they beefed up the OOC schedule a bit last season because they knew the team had a really good shot at making it. It did help with seeding. The Notre Dame win was beneficial too. Of course some upsets helped push us to a 12. Green Bay was upset in their tourney. No doubt they wouldve been seeded higher than us. But it is what it is. Ndsu was seeded correctly if you look at the other teams. Give me a 13 from last year where you can legitimately say they shouldve been seeded ahead of Ndsu. If you're going to argue about seeding. Complain about Kentucky being an 8 or UMass a 6. Its tough to compare the seedings from year to year because teams, circumstances, and metrics change.

[ndsubison1]

Re: Men's NCAA 2015 Tournament Summit league journey (NDSU Bison)

Playing against Gonzaga is a better matchup than any that the Jacks have had and NDSU was a 15 seed

gonzaga was a terrible matchup for us. baylor was for you too with size as well. Michigan was just flat out talented.

[ndsubison1]

Re: Men's NCAA 2015 Tournament Summit league journey (NDSU Bison)

You check the teams they played? SOS of 84. Gonzaga isn't a great defensive team and Wiltjer still has cement shoes on defense. Oh, and no I'm not jealous at all. Just think that I would have loved to have the Jacks play against Gonzaga instead of you know contenders

gonzaga is 37th in def efficiency. not great. but not terrible either.

[Nidaros]

Re: Men's NCAA 2015 Tournament Summit league journey (NDSU Bison)

gonzaga is 37th in def efficiency. not great. but not terrible either.

They could not pick up Werner off the dribble at all. I give credit to Dave Richman for picking up on that later in the second half. He was smart to run that play until they stopped and I really don't think they did stop it. If another 10 minutes to go, the Bison might still be playing.