ORU to Southland a done deal

[YanktonRabbit]

Re: ORU to Southland a done deal

It is unfortunate that ORU is gone. In my opinion, Oakland would be gone in the blink of an eye if the Horizon came calling, and where would that leave the Summit. All this discussion brings me back to thinking about the Big Sky if the Summit were to fall apart, and where would the MVFC be without say NDSU and SDSU joining the Big Sky?

[jackmd]

Re: ORU to Southland a done deal

Thinking far ahead now with a lack of hard facts to support my thoughts...Soon enough the DI/FCS division is going to be the DII of old while DII is the new NAIA. I was afraid it was going to go in that direction and it seems inevitable. The Big Dance will soon include only the "major" conferences just like the BCS in football. Smaller and less influential conferences will be relegated to their own championship format. Top it all of by renaming the Summit league the NCC.

It this scenario a terrible one to consider, that is up for debate. Competition for DI caliber players is already forcing programs to make offers early and extend their recruiting base. The influx of programs to DI even in sparsely populated areas like ND/SD further depletes the scholarship pool. Programs leaving the NAIA ranks for DII may increase their scholarship numbers and entice borderline, bench and depth building players to choose the star role at the lower level of competition. Is it possible? I think so.

In short, I think losing ORU to the Southland is bad thing for the Summit and for SDSU. Adding USD and UNO no doubt contributed to their departure. I've said it before and I still believe that SD and ND are not big enough for 4 DI schools. At least not for the quality athletic programs I want to see at SDSU.

[joeboo22]

Re: ORU to Southland a done deal

I do not think its good that the conference is losing Oral Roberts, arguably the most well known school in the conference.

I'll agree with statements that the Dakotas are not large enough to support 4 Division 1 schools. Currently they can get by because Minnesota only has 1 and all four schools recruit Minnesota heavily. If St. Cloud State and another Minnesota D-II school decides to move up, then it gets really crowded in the area for sports. I think its wait and see. But I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the week if they have an offer out to another school. My guess is St. Cloud State. But thats just a guess.

[LakeJack]

Re: ORU to Southland a done deal

people don't give in to the "sky is falling" emotions that some of you are feeling. Use your heads. The Summit League is going to be just fine without ORU. It was just a couple of years ago that ORU just about went out of business because of mismanagement. It took $25 million from a donor to keep them afloat. They still have issues and that is one of the reasons they are downgrading to the Southland. It is going to be ok

[jackmd]

Re: ORU to Southland a done deal

people don't give in to the "sky is falling" emotions that some of you are feeling. Use your heads. The Summit League is going to be just fine without ORU. It was just a couple of years ago that ORU just about went out of business because of mismanagement. It took $25 million from a donor to keep them afloat. They still have issues and that is one of the reasons they are downgrading to the Southland. It is going to be ok

Were you a member of the USD administration about 10 years ago?

[zooropa]

Re: ORU to Southland a done deal

Adding USD and UNO no doubt contributed to their departure.

If it did, it was not because those additions would weaken the Summit. They are joining a conference that has been raided by the WAC, and which is competitively weaker than the Summit in every sport except baseball. (ORU just willingly joined a conference that was ranked 29th last year according to Sagarin)

If they were interested in belonging to a strong conference, they would not have joined the Southland.

[zooropa]

Re: ORU to Southland a done deal

I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the week if they have an offer out to another school.

Nope. Douple is not Doug Fullerton.

[zooropa]

Re: ORU to Southland a done deal

Were you a member of the USD administration about 10 years ago?

Losing SUU, Centenary, and ORU is effectively a wash as far as the Sagarin ratings go.

And keeping ORU wouldn't do anything to keep Oakland in the Summit if the Horizon came calling, so essentially it boils down to this:

1 - every school in the Summit would take an offer from the Valley and/or the Horizon in a heartbeat. ORU's departure changes nothing in that regard.

2 - competitively, the Summit is better with ORU than without it. However, it is not so much better with ORU that it makes that leap from being classed with the MAC/Southern/MAAC class of the NCAA to the Mountain West and Missouri Valley class.

[jackmd]

Re: ORU to Southland a done deal

If it did, it was not because those additions would weaken the Summit. They are joining a conference that has been raided by the WAC, and which is competitively weaker than the Summit in every sport except baseball.

If they were interested in belonging to a strong conference, they would not have joined the Southland.

ORU didn't leave the Summit for a stronger conference, I agree. I believe they left for a number of reasons and most of them are less than noble. That said, I think the addition of UNO and USD as well as the opportunity provided by the WAC raid resulted in the final decision to move, lateral or downward depends on your perspective.

[LakeJack]

Re: ORU to Southland a done deal

Were you a member of the USD administration about 10 years ago?

Hey now, we can disagree without resorting to name calling

[jackmd]

Re: ORU to Southland a done deal

There is a push from most of the major conferences to assure that more of their teams are in the men's BB tournament. Proposals are already out there with regard to this. The one talked about most often is an expansion to 96 or more teams. However, there are other proposals that would eliminate autobids or form a "play in tourney" for autobid teams. The reason is exactly as you mentioned, money. Those who have it want more of it and the way to do that is to take from those who "don't deserve it".

Seeing ORU go has less to do with seeing ORU go and more to do with the continued migration of programs from NAIA to DII to DI to Major DI.

[jackmd]

Re: ORU to Southland a done deal

Hey now, we can disagree without resorting to name calling

Not trying to disagree, just trying to present a view that I have discussed with many people. If you asked an Augie supporter in 1998 if they thought Augie would be an NSIC team in an NAIA like DII they would have kicked you in the groin.

[zooropa]

Re: ORU to Southland a done deal

lateral or downward depends on your perspective.

Per Sagarin:

Summit - #18
Southland - #29

According to MY perspective, that is not a lateral move.

[zooropa]

Re: ORU to Southland a done deal

DI to Major DI.

What schools have moved from 'D1 to Major D1' over the last decade?

[joeybrownerHOF]

Re: ORU to Southland a done deal

Thinking far ahead now with a lack of hard facts to support my thoughts...Soon enough the DI/FCS division is going to be the DII of old while DII is the new NAIA. I was afraid it was going to go in that direction and it seems inevitable. The Big Dance will soon include only the "major" conferences just like the BCS in football. Smaller and less influential conferences will be relegated to their own championship format. Top it all of by renaming the Summit league the NCC.

It this scenario a terrible one to consider, that is up for debate. Competition for DI caliber players is already forcing programs to make offers early and extend their recruiting base. The influx of programs to DI even in sparsely populated areas like ND/SD further depletes the scholarship pool. Programs leaving the NAIA ranks for DII may increase their scholarship numbers and entice borderline, bench and depth building players to choose the star role at the lower level of competition. Is it possible? I think so.

In short, I think losing ORU to the Southland is bad thing for the Summit and for SDSU. Adding USD and UNO no doubt contributed to their departure. I've said it before and I still believe that SD and ND are not big enough for 4 DI schools. At least not for the quality athletic programs I want to see at SDSU.

I agree with almost everything you stated. I have discussed the same thing with many colleagues, before any talk of a move in the 90's through today, and our thoughts as stated above and stated in another post, are aligned. This shift is really no different than when the NCAA removed the college and university divisions 1950's?. It is all about the power schools wanting more power. My only question, and no smack from others, is why do you feel ND and SD can't support 4 DI schools? talent base, declining population of students, corporate money, etc? Other than the obvious, what is your desire for the quality athletic programs you want to see?