Summit vs Great West

[jackmd]

I haven't been playing close attention to OOC games for either conference but did notice a few scores this week and wanted to have some more fun with the comparative score game.

IPFW 95 Chicago St. 50
SDSU 87 IPFW 52
USD 75 Chicago St. 71

Using comparative scores is generally foolish and doesn't necessarily support any logical arguments. That said, I am going to go out on a limb and say USD's 20 win season last year was more a reflection of their weak schedule and less a reflection on their talent level. As most of us anticipated the transition is going to be just as tough on USD as it has been on everyone else. They aren't going to be competing for the league title as some might have asked us to believe. In fact, they might be battling just to make the post-season tourney when they become eligible. Only time will tell.

I feel pretty confident in saying that they would be outside looking in if they were in the Summit League this year as would all the other teams in the Great West. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. The Great West doesn't have a single team that would finish in the top 8 and make the post-season tourney.

[filbert]

Re: Summit vs Great West

When in doubt on such questions, I go to Pomeroy. As of today:

.7854 Oakland
.6565 SDSU
.6045 IUPUI
.5453 Oral Roberts
.4364 IPFW
.4285 NDSU
.2569 Utah Valley
.2469 UMKC
.1962 Southern Utah
.1774 USD
.1285 UND
.1026 NJIT
.0756 UTPA
.0743 Western Illinois
.0498 Houston Baptist
.0230 Chicago State
.0209 Centenary

A 20-win Summit League (Pomeroy #20, .3498 average) season is to a 20-win Great West (Pomeroy #32, .0943 average) season this year what a 20-win Conference USA (Pomeroy #8, .6542 average) is to a 20-win Summit League season.

[yotemeal]

Re: Summit vs Great West

I haven't been playing close attention to OOC games for either conference but did notice a few scores this week and wanted to have some more fun with the comparative score game.

IPFW 95 Chicago St. 50
SDSU 87 IPFW 52
USD 75 Chicago St. 71

Using comparative scores is generally foolish and doesn't necessarily support any logical arguments. That said, I am going to go out on a limb and say USD's 20 win season last year was more a reflection of their weak schedule and less a reflection on their talent level. As most of us anticipated the transition is going to be just as tough on USD as it has been on everyone else. They aren't going to be competing for the league title as some might have asked us to believe. In fact, they might be battling just to make the post-season tourney when they become eligible. Only time will tell.

I feel pretty confident in saying that they would be outside looking in if they were in the Summit League this year as would all the other teams in the Great West. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. The Great West doesn't have a single team that would finish in the top 8 and make the post-season tourney.

The Great West sucks, of course. But your observation can neither be demonstrated nor disproved apart from USD actually playing in the Summit League this year. It's mere conjecture and inherently smackish. Then again, what are message boards for?

[jackmd]

Re: Summit vs Great West

The Great West sucks, of course. But your observation can neither be demonstrated nor disproved apart from USD actually playing in the Summit League this year. It's mere conjecture and inherently smackish. Then again, what are message boards for?

Agreed. I do remember some banter from at least one (maybe only one) USD fan regarding the expected immediate ability to compete with the top tier in the Summit. Supporting arguments included relative success at the DII level and a better record early in transition. Counterpoints regarding the weakened state of DII and the crappy schedule were generally ignored.

My greater concern, and I think its still a concern, is that USD moved up to DI only to avoid becoming irrelevant and that some at USD believe relevancy is defined only by or primarily by renewing the rivalry with SDSU. Worse yet, I think some people think just by declaring that they are DI and meeting some minimal requirements that is then justification for making the move to DI.

I know doubt see this from a biased perspective and for that I apologize. Fact is, transition is a pain the butt. The best way to approach it is to take your lumps and build your program the way it needs to be built to compete in the future. To me that means committing to players who will be with you for 4 or 5 years, not JUCO's or transfers. It means playing teams that you aspire to be like, not NAIA or DII schools. It means losing games, a lot of games and swallowing your pride.

The Coyotes have a long way to go before they will compete in the Summit or MVFC. They could come that long way in a hurry like SDSU has or it might take more time. Fans with the expectation that USD will compete right away are not being realistic and that can do more harm than good.

[yotemeal]

Re: Summit vs Great West

Agreed. I do remember some banter from at least one (maybe only one) USD fan regarding the expected immediate ability to compete with the top tier in the Summit. Supporting arguments included relative success at the DII level and a better record early in transition. Counterpoints regarding the weakened state of DII and the crappy schedule were generally ignored.

My greater concern, and I think its still a concern, is that USD moved up to DI only to avoid becoming irrelevant and that some at USD believe relevancy is defined only by or primarily by renewing the rivalry with SDSU. Worse yet, I think some people think just by declaring that they are DI and meeting some minimal requirements that is then justification for making the move to DI.

I know doubt see this from a biased perspective and for that I apologize. Fact is, transition is a pain the butt. The best way to approach it is to take your lumps and build your program the way it needs to be built to compete in the future. To me that means committing to players who will be with you for 4 or 5 years, not JUCO's or transfers. It means playing teams that you aspire to be like, not NAIA or DII schools. It means losing games, a lot of games and swallowing your pride.

The Coyotes have a long way to go before they will compete in the Summit or MVFC. They could come that long way in a hurry like SDSU has or it might take more time. Fans with the expectation that USD will compete right away are not being realistic and that can do more harm than good.

I have to agree to disagree on several points, but I'll leave it at that. It's a Friday and north of 30 degrees. I'm a reasonably happy camper.

[jackmd]

Re: Summit vs Great West

I have to agree to disagree on several points, but I'll leave it at that. It's a Friday and north of 30 degrees. I'm a reasonably happy camper.

I'm with you on the last part and I think denial is a reasonable coping mechanism as long as you eventual move past it.

I know, just wait until we play U again and then all question will be answered. Not that USD really wants to play SDSU again but just wait until they do. You'll be sorry when that day comes. Now I'm not even making sense. I think its delirium.

[filbert]

Re: Summit vs Great West

The Great West sucks, of course. But your observation can neither be demonstrated nor disproved apart from USD actually playing in the Summit League this year. It's mere conjecture and inherently smackish. Then again, what are message boards for?

Another quite reasonable observation is:

If a weak GWC makes a 20-win USD season "less of an achievement," what does that say about SDSU's short stint there?

Not much good, obviously.

After Pomeroy, only Utah Valley would likely make an 8-team tournament consisting of a combined Summit-GWC this year. And they'd make a quick exit from that tournament, on average. There's a quite noticeable gap in quality between the top six Summit teams and the remainder of the Summit, and all of the GWC teams.

It also appears to me from casual observation that USD is having a somewhat under-performing year, even in the GWC.

I would guess that Boots and his crew has an awfully good idea what they're getting into next year. I think that USD will have trouble competing consistently with the top Summit teams next year but the Coyotes will not necessarily be an easy win for the rest of the conference.

I do think USD's men's basketball program is entering the Summit League in much, much better shape overall than SDSU did. I have no idea if that will translate into more or less success than SDSU in their first couple of years, as I think the league overall is in the process of getting much, much better than it was when SDSU and NDSU came in. (And yes, USD coming in and Centenary and SUU leaving are elements of that ongoing improvement, IMHO.)

[jackmd]

Re: Summit vs Great West

I would guess that Boots and his crew has an awfully good idea what they're getting into next year. I think that USD will have trouble competing consistently with the top Summit teams next year but the Coyotes will not necessarily be an easy win for the rest of the conference.

I do think USD's men's basketball program is entering the Summit League in much, much better shape overall than SDSU did. I have no idea if that will translate into more or less success than SDSU in their first couple of years, as I think the league overall is in the process of getting much, much better than it was when SDSU and NDSU came in. (And yes, USD coming in and Centenary and SUU leaving are elements of that ongoing improvement, IMHO.)

No doubt these observations are true. I concur, winning in Vermillion isn't going to be a given for many teams, especially the Jacks. I just noticed a quote from an article I was reading about one of their recruits. Perhaps a weak schedule was in their favor in this case. Time will tell.



Hilliard was joined by his family and friends at East High to celebrate his decision to go to South Dakota which he chose based upon a campus visit earlier this year where he really felt comfortable with the players, coaches, and campus.

“Everything was great — the coaches, the school, the winning program — I really enjoyed my visit there,” Hilliard told The Madison Times. “I feel like I really made a good bond with those coaches and that they could teach me a lot.”

Hilliard said he was impressed with the success of the South Dakota program, which is in the fourth year of its transition to Division I. The Coyotes, who have joined the Summit League in 2011 during the final year of its transition, went 22-10 last season and won the Great West Conference with an 11-1 record.

"I'm looking forward to continuing to play basketball at the next level and hopefully win a national championship some day.”

http://www.themadisontimes.com/news_...hp?news_id=789

[91jack]

Re: Summit vs Great West

Another quite reasonable observation is:

It also appears to me from casual observation that USD is having a somewhat under-performing year, even in the GWC.

I would guess that Boots and his crew has an awfully good idea what they're getting into next year. I think that USD will have trouble competing consistently with the top Summit teams next year but the Coyotes will not necessarily be an easy win for the rest of the conference.

I do think USD's men's basketball program is entering the Summit League in much, much better shape overall than SDSU did. I have no idea if that will translate into more or less success than SDSU in their first couple of years, as I think the league overall is in the process of getting much, much better than it was when SDSU and NDSU came in. (And yes, USD coming in and Centenary and SUU leaving are elements of that ongoing improvement, IMHO.)

I think USD is in better shape than SDSU was when they went DI. SDSU just won big and had a lot of seniors. The better players that weren't seniors transfered out. USD didn't have that problem.

I think USD will be middle of the pack (or so) next year. Neither their men's or women's teams have much for seniors this year. They both are lead by juniors. They also have a couple sophomores and a freshman that play a lot, too. Granted you can't really look 2 years down the road but I think USD will regress from year one to their second year in the Summit league.

I also agree that the Summit League is improving. Most teams in the league are getting better and you are dropping 2 of the bottom 3 teams.

I understand the quote about wanting to go to a winning team but he also does say, "... and hopefully win a national championship some day." If this was football, I could understand him saying that but to think USD is going to do that in basketball is just high school kids talk about their dreams.

[filbert]

Re: Summit vs Great West

I'm with you on the last part and I think denial is a reasonable coping mechanism as long as you eventual move past it.

I know, just wait until we play U again and then all question will be answered. Not that USD really wants to play SDSU again but just wait until they do. You'll be sorry when that day comes. Now I'm not even making sense. I think its delirium.

Heat exhaustion, perhaps?

[hareball]

Re: Summit vs Great West

The Yotes will be welcomed into the Summit with their first league game on the road in Oakland.

It appears the 2011-12 Summit schedule has been revised as if memory serves me correctly the first U-State game was scheduled in Vermillion on 12/30/11. On the latest schedule the first U-State game will be a mens / womens doubleheader in Brookings on 1/14/12 (Saturday)(think that might be a sellout?) The return games in Vermillion are the men on 2/9/12(Thursday) & women on 2/13/12 (Monday).

[jackmd]

Re: Summit vs Great West

The Yotes will be welcomed into the Summit with their first league game on the road in Oakland.

It appears the 2011-12 Summit schedule has been revised as if memory serves me correctly the first U-State game was scheduled in Vermillion on 12/30/11. On the latest schedule the first U-State game will be a mens / womens doubleheader in Brookings on 1/14/12 (Saturday)(think that might be a sellout?) The return games in Vermillion are the men on 2/9/12(Thursday) & women on 2/13/12 (Monday).

Should be fun. I hope I can make it to at least a couple of the games. I try to pick the games when the best teams are in Brookings and/or when my schedule allows. Not sure if the USD will work out or not. Good news, lots of other great teams and probably more important games to see (kind of tongue in cheek, but not all the way in cheek).

[Jacked_Up]

Re: Summit vs Great West

USD had an easier transition largely and simply because SDSU and NDSU (and Northern Colorado, to a lesser degree) demonstrated that it could be done. SDSU had to spend a couple of years convincing many of its own supporters and students (including some athletes), as well as rival schools and state leaders, that the Jackrabbits would fit very comfortably into the higher level and definitely would not return to D-II. USD (and UND) didn't have to waste that kind of energy. USD just had to backtrack on its vow to remain in D-II and dive straight into the more meaningful challenges of the transition. By then, everyone knew D-I was attainable and was not an unreastic goal.

[yotemeal]

Re: Summit vs Great West

Should be fun. I hope I can make it to at least a couple of the games. I try to pick the games when the best teams are in Brookings and/or when my schedule allows. Not sure if the USD will work out or not. Good news, lots of other great teams and probably more important games to see (kind of tongue in cheek, but not all the way in cheek).

Doc, assuming you have basketball season tickets, I'll gladly fill in for you at Frost, as to allow you to attend more important games. It WILL be the toughest ticket of the season...for years and years to come.

[Jacks#1Fan]

Re: Summit vs Great West

Another quite reasonable observation is:
If a weak GWC makes a 20-win USD season "less of an achievement," what does that say about SDSU's short stint there?

Just to set the record right, there was no Great West for any other sport than football prior to our joining the Summit (Mid-Continent). We did have a basketball tournament at the end of the last year (prior to Summit) among whatever independents could be grouped together. The Great West added other sports after SDSU and NDSU joined what is now the Missouri Valley Football Conference. Hence, no valid comparison available.