Murray State in '22?

[Mr_Tibbs]

I'm just sayin people can't use the all sports phrase and then say except this sport or that one. IMO fit and exposure per sport is important. I'm not sure we are comparable to a football or basketball power school.

But that is the reality of niche sports, like swimming/wrestling/hockey. Those sports are a lot more hodgepodge for conferences even in power schools. There’s an exception for those sports for a reason.

Whether we a football/basketball power or not doesn’t matter. The Big Sky is an all sports league. Same with the Southland, the Socon, etc. And I would argue that we are definitely not getting the best exposure for every sport in our current situation. Adding the likes of Murray and unbalanced schedules is lowering our football exposure, not raising it.

[Justwin]

But that is the reality of niche sports, like swimming/wrestling/hockey. Those sports are a lot more hodgepodge for conferences even in power schools. There’s an exception for those sports for a reason.

Whether we a football/basketball power or not doesn’t matter. The Big Sky is an all sports league. Same with the Southland, the Socon, etc. And I would argue that we are definitely not getting the best exposure for every sport in our current situation. Adding the likes of Murray and unbalanced schedules is lowering our football exposure, not raising it.

Fair enough.

[jakejc795]

I really do like the Valley, but I think if there’s a way to start Summit Football, we should do it. I know the FBS thing is out there too and I won’t go down that rabbit hole. I wish that UNI/ISUr/MSU would prioritize football and join the Summit, but that will never happen. The best we can hope for is the 4 Dakotas, UNC, UST, and maybe WIU.

We need to get back to an all sports conference and a nine team football league. The Valley proved this past spring that FCS football isn’t a commitment for them and when you have a championship caliber program (like we do), we need to be with like minded schools.

How would the Panthers, Redbirds, and Bears joining the nascent "Summit Football Conference" represent a prioritization of football?

I assume you're basing your assertion that the Valley wasn't "committed" to football on the fact that teams opted out or didn't finish? If so, perhaps they just committed to contributing to program sustainability by playing in the fall.

[jakejc795]

I'm just sayin people can't use the all sports phrase and then say except this sport or that one. IMO fit and exposure per sport is important. I'm not sure we are comparable to a football or basketball power school.

Exactly, just look at the Big East, which, with the exception of UConn (hardly a football power), has member institutions whose football teams play in a completely different subdivision, let alone conference.

[jakejc795]

call me old fashion, but i like the idea of all sports being in one conference.

The old NCC (currently fielding teams in the FCS) plus Montana and Montana State?

[Mr_Tibbs]

How would the Panthers, Redbirds, and Bears joining the nascent "Summit Football Conference" represent a prioritization of football?

I assume you're basing your assertion that the Valley wasn't "committed" to football on the fact that teams opted out or didn't finish? If so, perhaps they just committed to contributing to program sustainability by playing in the fall.

Im saying that adding a team that is weaker than all existing teams in the league weakens football. And your example of the Big East isn’t representative in the way you think it is. The Big East used to have teams such as WVU, Syracuse, and Miami. Those teams left for greener pastures primarily because of the lack of emphasis on football. The Big East became basketball centric private schools that may or may not have football and almost certainly don’t prioritize it. The reason the Big East now has football playing members all in different conferences is because those schools don’t give two ****s about football.

[jakejc795]

Im saying that adding a team that is weaker than all existing teams in the league weakens football. And your example of the Big East isn’t representative in the way you think it is. The Big East used to have teams such as WVU, Syracuse, and Miami. Those teams left for greener pastures primarily because of the lack of emphasis on football. The Big East became basketball centric private schools that may or may not have football and almost certainly don’t prioritize it. The reason the Big East now has football playing members all in different conferences is because those schools don’t give two ****s about football.

Murray State being weaker than the Sycamores and 'Necks is debatable.

The Big East reflects the fact that some conference members focus on sports like BB, while others try to develop strong BB and FB programs, even if it means having teams play in a lower subdivision. We're as likely to see the 'Necks and Sycamores reclassify or drop football as we are to see the teams shuffle to form your Summit Football Conference, and were either to happen, Murray State is merely their replacement

[Mr_Tibbs]

Murray State being weaker than the Sycamores and 'Necks is debatable.

The Big East reflects the fact that some conference members focus on sports like BB, while others try to develop strong BB and FB programs, even if it means having teams play in a lower subdivision. We're as likely to see the 'Necks and Sycamores reclassify or drop football as we are to see the teams shuffle to form your Summit Football Conference, and were either to happen, Murray State is merely their replacement

It’s actually not that debatable. Both ISUb and WIU have made the playoffs multiple times this decade. Murray hasn’t. I also don’t think there’s a single school in the Big East trying to “develop” a strong football program. Nova is the most successful program in that league, FCS or otherwise, and their facilities and commitment to football are laughable. They are competitive in spite of their commitment to the sport and a lot of that had to do with Andy Tally’s long tenure there. I agree that WIU and ISUb are as likely to drop down as WIU is to be in a Summit Football conference. Any conference we are ever in is going to have to be built around the Dakota 4, both for geographical reasons and to match the commitment level to football. To be honest, the only schools that match that which are remotely in our neck of the woods are the Montana schools. I don’t think we will ever see ourselves forming a new league with them though.

[jakejc795]

It’s actually not that debatable. Both ISUb and WIU have made the playoffs multiple times this decade. Murray hasn’t. I also don’t think there’s a single school in the Big East trying to “develop” a strong football program. Nova is the most successful program in that league, FCS or otherwise, and their facilities and commitment to football are laughable. They are competitive in spite of their commitment to the sport and a lot of that had to do with Andy Tally’s long tenure there. I agree that WIU and ISUb are as likely to drop down as WIU is to be in a Summit Football conference. Any conference we are ever in is going to have to be built around the Dakota 4, both for geographical reasons and to match the commitment level to football. To be honest, the only schools that match that which are remotely in our neck of the woods are the Montana schools. I don’t think we will ever see ourselves forming a new league with them though.

The Sycamores made the playoffs once, in 2014, while 'Nova has made a handful of appearances, so I'm not sure what your criteria are for determining a program's level of "investment," but if you honestly believe that WIU and the Sycamores' level of investment dwarfs Villanova's, then 'Nova is, at worst, realizing a considerably greater ROI. Moreover, if you concede those same teams are likely to reclassify or be dropped, that's indicative of disinvestment.

Murray State has essentially been a middling team in the OVC, and I'm guessing they'll finish in the lower 3rd of the Valley overall; however, I suspect they'll have competitive games versus teams like WIU and the Sycamores.

One should also recognize that the Sycamores and 'Necks reaped the benefits of Valley membership when playoff teams were selected as much as Murray State was hampered by the OVC's consistent lack of representation (typically only fielding one playoff team)

[Mr_Tibbs]

The Sycamores made the playoffs once, in 2014, while 'Nova has made a handful of appearances, so I'm not sure what your criteria are for determining a program's level of "investment," but if you honestly believe that WIU and the Sycamores' level of investment dwarfs Villanova's, then 'Nova is, at worst, realizing a considerably greater ROI. Moreover, if you concede those same teams are likely to reclassify or be dropped, that's indicative of disinvestment.

Murray State has essentially been a middling team in the OVC, and I'm guessing they'll finish in the lower 3rd of the Valley overall; however, I suspect they'll have competitive games versus teams like WIU and the Sycamores.

One should also recognize that the Sycamores and 'Necks reaped the benefits of Valley membership when playoff teams were selected as much as Murray State was hampered by the OVC's consistent lack of representation (typically only fielding one playoff team)

I was comparing WIU and ISUb’s commitment to Murray, not Nova. But even then I think you could make an argument that WIU is about as committed to football as Nova is. WIU has had several good teams this decade and made some deep playoff runs the decade before. Their stadium is usually empty, but it holds 16000 and about twice the size of Nova’s.

Im also not going to go in depth to explain why the Valley was getting 5 teams in those years and the OVC was not. It sure as hell wasn’t just Valley bias. That year that Indiana State made the playoffs as the 5th place valley team, they beat the OVC number 2 EKU on the road. The OVC didn’t get more teams in because they were and are a weak league and the Valley had an amazing out of conference record that year, which the OVC also didn’t have. I don’t think the OVC is what was holding Murray back. I think they were content to be a middling team in a middling league for the last 20 years just for the sake of basketball.

[jakejc795]

I was comparing WIU and ISUb’s commitment to Murray, not Nova. But even then I think you could make an argument that WIU is about as committed to football as Nova is. WIU has had several good teams this decade and made some deep playoff runs the decade before. Their stadium is usually empty, but it holds 16000 and about twice the size of Nova’s.

Im also not going to go in depth to explain why the Valley was getting 5 teams in those years and the OVC was not. It sure as hell wasn’t just Valley bias. That year that Indiana State made the playoffs as the 5th place valley team, they beat the OVC number 2 EKU on the road. The OVC didn’t get more teams in because they were and are a weak league and the Valley had an amazing out of conference record that year, which the OVC also didn’t have. I don’t think the OVC is what was holding Murray back. I think they were content to be a middling team in a middling league for the last 20 years just for the sake of basketball.

Villanova Stadium has a 12.5k capacity, so Hanson Stadium is nowhere near double the size, and 'Nova's attendance % consistently exceeds WIU's & the Sycamores' for that matter. I noticed you didn't concede Memorial Stadium's capacity is equivalent to 'Nova's.

The argument that Murray State weakens the conference more than a couple programs frequently mentioned as candidates to drop football or reclassify is baffling.

[Grizzled_Jack]

https://lindenwoodlions.com/news/202...ray-state.aspx

I saw Murray State- Lindenwood yesterday and I think this is potentially a worse program than either ISUb or WIU. No wins in a very weak conference. So weak that Lindenwood will probably be 8-2 in their FCS transition year (with some D2 and NAIA patsies). And, yes, Lindenwood is about the same team you saw in Brookings last year, although they're persistant and combine bad defense with a certain explosiveness that the Jacks easily bottled up. My take on the OVC is that it's not a lot stronger than the GLVC and worse than the MIAA. Of course several good football programs have left in the last few years. Murray isn't one of them. Think it might be time for Summit football. Still think that Central Missouri has the facilities for both football and basketball that make them a viable anchor in the Kansas City metro area if the Roos get better facilities and leave for the Valley.