NDSU to pay "Cost of Attendence"

[filbert]

Re: NDSU to pay "Cost of Attendence"

Not sure if/how it relates to this conversation, but I thought the core purpose of the NCAA in relation to this discussion is interesting.

It used to be:

Our purpose is to govern competition in a fair, safe, equitable and sportsmanlike manner, and to integrate intercollegiate athletics into higher education so that the educational experience of the student-athlete is paramount.

From what I can tell, they no longer have a core purpose statement.

IMO, the NCAA as an institution is incredibly flawed and it is only a matter of time until it ceases to exist.

The NCAA is nothing more than the creature of its member institutions. Specifically, those member institutions with the big, big, big athletic budgets. Everybody else is along for the ride.

You want to know who's responsible for this mess? Look at the college presidents of the Big 10, Big 12, SEC, Pac 12, ACC, etc. They're the ones who forgot what business they were supposed to be in.

[Nidaros]

Re: NDSU to pay "Cost of Attendence"

The NCAA is nothing more than the creature of its member institutions. Specifically, those member institutions with the big, big, big athletic budgets. Everybody else is along for the ride.

You want to know who's responsible for this mess? Look at the college presidents of the Big 10, Big 12, SEC, Pac 12, ACC, etc. They're the ones who forgot what business they were supposed to be in.

You are exactly right, and what is there to stop SA from making 100k right out of high school. Maybe this issue explains why the B-10 does not want to play FCS schools. Oversimplified reasoning, but the ego war is on. That cant be denied.

[LARabbit]

Re: NDSU to pay "Cost of Attendence"

So in looking at NDSU's sports offerings they can offer a total of 77 scholarships among the 8 sports on the women's side and 114.7 scholarships among the 8 sports on the men's for a total of 191.7 scholarships. SDSU on the other hand can offer up to 114 scholarships among the 11 sports on the women's side and 129.1 among the 10 sports offered on the men's side for a total of 243.1 scholarships. Of course we are not fully funded on the men's side in order to remain in title 9 compliance. Not sure how NDSU can give that many additional men's scholarships than women's. I believe South Dakota is more strict on their adherence of title 9. If SDSU was fully funded it would require 51.4 more scholarships than NDSU. Didn't realize they were such a small athletic department.

[Nidaros]

Re: NDSU to pay "Cost of Attendence"

So in looking at NDSU's sports offerings they can offer a total of 77 scholarships among the 8 sports on the women's side and 114.7 scholarships among the 8 sports on the men's for a total of 191.7 scholarships. SDSU on the other hand can offer up to 114 scholarships among the 11 sports on the women's side and 129.1 among the 10 sports offered on the men's side for a total of 243.1 scholarships. Of course we are not fully funded on the men's side in order to remain in title 9 compliance. Not sure how NDSU can give that many additional men's scholarships than women's. I believe South Dakota is more strict on their adherence of title 9. If SDSU was fully funded it would require 51.4 more scholarships than NDSU. Didn't realize they were such a small athletic department.

Not even close to being a Bison fan or an alum, but a watcher. What they do they do well. I tend to think SDSU has too many sports, more then require. I have a feeling we will soon have A big horse sale when the equestrian sport shuts down. How this balances with Title IX is an unanswered question.

[RochJack69]

Re: NDSU to pay "Cost of Attendence"

Not even close to being a Bison fan or an alum, but a watcher. What they do they do well. I tend to think SDSU has too many sports, more then require. I have a feeling we will soon have A big horse sale when the equestrian sport shuts down. How this balances with Title IX is an unanswered question.

Tennis is many programs sacrifice. Mens soccer could and should be added even if it's only nonscholarship. Used to be unheard of not to have gymnastics.
Have to decide if they are truly D1 or not.

[jack power]

Re: NDSU to pay "Cost of Attendence"

So in looking at NDSU's sports offerings they can offer a total of 77 scholarships among the 8 sports on the women's side and 114.7 scholarships among the 8 sports on the men's for a total of 191.7 scholarships. SDSU on the other hand can offer up to 114 scholarships among the 11 sports on the women's side and 129.1 among the 10 sports offered on the men's side for a total of 243.1 scholarships. Of course we are not fully funded on the men's side in order to remain in title 9 compliance. Not sure how NDSU can give that many additional men's scholarships than women's. I believe South Dakota is more strict on their adherence of title 9. If SDSU was fully funded it would require 51.4 more scholarships than NDSU. Didn't realize they were such a small athletic department.

The short answer on why NDSU can do that is that Title IX contains a 3 prong test for compliance. Schools are required to satisfy one of those prongs. I believe the Bison satisfy #3. I would have to look up what's involved in that but they're obviously in compliance with not only the Feds but also the NCAA and our conference which is also required.

When SDSU moved up to D1, the SDBOR required us to satisfy all 3 prongs.

[hareball]

Re: NDSU to pay "Cost of Attendence"

Per the NCAA Q&A regarding Title IX

"Q. How does an institution comply with Title IX?

An institution must meet all of the following requirements in order to be in compliance with Title IX:

1. For participation requirements, institutions officials must meet one of the following three tests. An institution may:
   1. Provide participation opportunities for women and men that are substantially proportionate to their respective rates of enrollment of full-time undergraduate students;
   2. Demonstrate a history and continuing practice of program expansion for the underrepresented sex;
   3. Fully and effectively accommodate the interests and abilities of the underrepresented sex; and,
   
   
2. Female and male student-athletes must receive athletics scholarship dollars proportional to their participation; and,
3. Equal treatment of female and male student-athletes in the eleven provisions as mentioned above."

[Hammersmith]

Re: NDSU to pay "Cost of Attendence"

The short answer on why NDSU can do that is that Title IX contains a 3 prong test for compliance. Schools are required to satisfy one of those prongs. I believe the Bison satisfy #3. I would have to look up what's involved in that but they're obviously in compliance with not only the Feds but also the NCAA and our conference which is also required.

When SDSU moved up to D1, the SDBOR required us to satisfy all 3 prongs.

Which is dumb as hell because you can't satisfy prong 2(continuing program expansion) if you're already satisfying prong 1(proportionality). But I think I'm preaching to the choir on this one.


NDSU uses prong 3(interests and abilities). We got in trouble something like 20 years ago and had to make a bunch of changes. We made those changes over the course of about a year, and the court/mediator/investigator signed off on it. A few years later, the NCAA took a look at us as a standard part of the DI transition(they did the same to SDSU) and gave us a clean bill of health. I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually add women's tennis or swimming & diving, but I doubt we will be forced to.


There have been a few misconceptions on this thread, so I'll try to clear them up.

1. While the P5 are the ones who pushed FCOA through, a big reason is pending litigations by student-athletes. The P5/NCAA are trying to stay ahead of the outcome of those cases.

2. No conferences will prohibit FCOA because of the above. G5, FCS, and non-FB conferences are worried that they will get drawn into those lawsuits if they officially prohibit FCOA. The lawsuits are alleging collusion on the part of the conferences and the NCAA to deny players benefits. If the schools in a conference voted to prohibit FCOA, that would be waving a red flag in front of the lawyers who handle cases like this.

3. FCOA can be handled on a department, sport, or player level. A whole athletic department can go FCOA like NDSU or the P5. A school can go on a sport by sport basis like UNI with basketball or UND with hockey. Or a school can go to the individual level and give FCOA to one member of a team but not another. It's a totally case by case basis.

4. Individual FCOA calculations are both simple and complicated. Each student-athlete that receives athletic aid has an individual fraction. The numerator of that fraction is the amount of money the student receives. The denominator is what the student is allowed to receive. FCOA changes the denominator. Mostly you just add on the $3400 or whatever, but I think you also change the way books are factored in. The traditional way required a school to itemize each book, while the FCOA method allows for a flat rate.* So it's not like you calculate the scholarship fraction and then calculate the stipend fraction and add them together. It's really just a combined amount. It's actually easier to compute than to try and explain. In the end, you add up all the fractions, no matter how they're calculated, and they have to add up to the scholarship limit of that sport. (with the exception of the headcount sports like basketball or VB)

5. What are the FCOA limits? Well, that's complicated. All colleges that accept federal student aid are required by federal law to report what extra money a typical student should expect to pay beyond the regular stated costs. The P5 decided to use that figure rather than coming up with a new way. Can a school manipulate that number to increase the allowed stipend amount? Yep. But if a school goes hog wild, they might end up getting asked some hard questions by the feds. And bumping up that number can end up affecting a school's overall academic recruiting. Whatever number a school's athletic department wants for a stipend has to be figured into the cost page on the school's website. Bump up the stipend by $5000 and you're now telling every potential freshman that your school now costs $5000/year more to attend.



*example:
old way - book for chem 120 = $75, books for english 100 = $62, book for speech 110 = $57, etc. Add them all up and the student gets exactly that amount back.
new way - flat rate, such as $1000/year. Sometimes you get a bit extra, sometimes it comes up a bit short.

[Nidaros]

Re: NDSU to pay "Cost of Attendence"

The voice of reason from the north has weighed in. Thank you Hammersmith. I am guilty of accusing the Presidents of the
of the P5 of being involved in a Ego war which based on your excellent post is totally non sense. Being faced with law suits makes people and groups do things that they ordinarily would not do. Just as I thought Governor Janklow had pulled the magic SD checkbook from his pocket for the Tobacco settlement fund and wrote a check to USD to pay for the new roof on the DakotaDome, I am equally wrong in thinking that P5 presidents are on some ego trip in wanting to pay COA salaries. I thank both JackJd and Hammersmith for setting me straight. Being on the outside looking in it is so easy to draw a wrong conclusion.

[jack power]

Re: NDSU to pay "Cost of Attendence"

Good stuff,Hammer. Appreciate the info

[witness]

NDSU to pay "Cost of Attendence"

Interesting read about paying players
http://deadsp.in/1LJTKX6

[RochJack69]

Re: NDSU to pay "Cost of Attendence"

Interesting read about paying players
http://deadsp.in/1LJTKX6

Not to mention all the "wink, wink" funds that have occurred in many successful and not so successful programs.

[Jacks#1Fan]

Re: NDSU to pay "Cost of Attendence"

I have a better understanding of the COA situation now, and will make just a few comments. The Cost of Attendance is a figure already used in each institutions bookkeeping and is reported. The NCAA allowed COA to be paid out to scholarship athletes, under pressure from the Power 5 (who basically were threatening to leave the NCAA I think). It is a maximum...a lower amount could be paid out by an institution. Also, it can be by sport. As a result, SDSU will probably be moving to paying out COA to the two basketball programs as early as next year. But football is a whole different story, thanks to Title IX. If we pay out COA for 63 full ride scholarships in football, we have to do the same for women's teams. That is an enormous cost.

In essence, NDSU (knowing full well the problem a lot of schools will have with this move) has upped the ante for FCS football institutions. I expect no less from them, but wish there had been some attempts to at least discuss the issue with the other MVFC schools before forging ahead. Since they can raise the money, they can essentially buy the issue (which proves money can buy almost anything).

[SanDakotaState]

Re: NDSU to pay "Cost of Attendence"

UND to offer COA starting in 2016-2017

http://www.undsports.com/ViewArticle...CLID=210311811

[BTownJack]

Re: NDSU to pay "Cost of Attendence"

UND to offer COA starting in 2016-2017

http://www.undsports.com/ViewArticle...CLID=210311811

We better get on board fast. Being pro-active on large issues like this we are not!