USD vs State rivalry shirts

[RabbitObsessed]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

So why raise it here then?

I think the first part of my post is very relevant, but the second was just whimsical musing.

[SoDakJack]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

But what is offensive? Whether something is offensive or not is completely subjective. What offends some, doesn't other.

I've always felt that people in this country were too easily offended, but that is another argument for another day/message board.

If you really don't see what is offensive or inappropriate about wearing a t-shirt like the ones that are pictured at the beginning of the thread, then you will never make it to middle management at McDonalds. There is no place for shirts like that, and even the "Screw the U" ones anymore.

This isn't DII anymore. I don't want fans from either school to become like West Virginia fans. If you want to wear a shirt to show your support, why not pay a visit to the bookstore?

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

But what is offensive? Whether something is offensive or not is completely subjective. What offends some, doesn't other.

I've always felt that people in this country were too easily offended, but that is another argument for another day/message board.

How about this: if it can't be said on TV without being bleeped, it can't be worn at a college basketball game.

RO, are you one of those fans that drops f-bombs when there is a 4 year old sitting in front of you at athletic events?

[SoDakJack]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

How about this: if it can't be said on TV without being bleeped, it can't be worn at a college basketball game.

RO, are you one of those fans that drops f-bombs when there is a 4 year old sitting in front of you at athletic events?

I was told, by an old professor, that the over use of profanity shows an overall lack of vocabulary and lesser intelligence.

[RabbitObsessed]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

RO, are you one of those fans that drops f-bombs when there is a 4 year old sitting in front of you at athletic events?

No, I sit in the student section where it is impossible not to hear the F bomb, and there are no 4 year olds.

I was told, by an old professor, that the over use of profanity shows an overall lack of vocabulary and lesser intelligence.

My freshman year in Comp 201 with Dr. Taylor we had a discussion about how the F word had more uses than any other word in the English language.

[yotemeal]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

Perhaps JackJD or any other lawyers on this forum care to weigh in on this. If certain shirts are banned, who wins in the event a group of rebellious students from either university sues SDSU alleging a violation of their First Amendment rights? (This is one of five essay questions. You have 90 minutes to complete the exam). With USD soon becoming part of the Summit, these types of controversies will certainly pop up more than once. I'm hardly a First Amendment scholar, and I'm certainly not advocating that all of the shirts discussed on this forum are in good taste (the “jack be nimble” shirt is clearly not in good taste, but is it protected speech?), but I do think it would make for some interesting litigation. Things typically get dicey when public institution officials are left unfettered discretion to decide what is “offensive” and subsequently deny such expression in a public forum. Found a somewhat interesting law review article for any dorks out there wanting to brush up on First Amendment theory and self-serving case law: http://lawreview.law.pitt.edu/issues/67/67.3/Wasserman.pdf. I haven’t come close to reading the whole article or studying this issue in particular...just thought I'd add some fuel to what could truly be a meaningful discussion on what I consider an interesting topic...

Page 568 specifically addresses profanity.

Have students been turned away previously from Frost due to the content of their shirts?

[zooropa]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

My freshman year in Comp 201 with Dr. Taylor we had a discussion about how the F word had more uses than any other word in the English language.

Which tends to support the notion that one who uses the F-bomb significantly more than the 'average' person, is one with a more limited vocabulary, generally incapable of expressing himself/herself in more accurate and less offensive terms.

[zooropa]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

If certain shirts are banned, who wins in the event a group of rebellious students from either university sues SDSU alleging a violation of their First Amendment rights?

The university's has an acknowledged authority to expel fans who engage in abusive conduct.

No freedom is absolute. You can be expelled from a grocery store if you stand in the middle of the store and yell obscenities at the top of your lungs. The first amendment doesn't cover such obnoxious behavior.

You can't sell porn on street corners to twelve year old kids, you can't scream insults in the faces of passerby, etc.

The first amendment is hardly an absolute, unlimited guarantee to express yourself however you deem fit in whatever location you happen to choose.

--

Therefore there is ample precedent to turn individuals away at the door.

Furthermore, the plaintiffs (in this case the students) would have the burden of proving that the school's actions were 'unreasonable'.

[RabbitObsessed]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

Perhaps JackJD or any other lawyers on this forum care to weigh in on this. If certain shirts are banned, who wins in the event a group of rebellious students from either university sues SDSU alleging a violation of their First Amendment rights? (This is one of five essay questions. You have 90 minutes to complete the exam). With USD soon becoming part of the Summit, these types of controversies will certainly pop up more than once. I'm hardly a First Amendment scholar, and I'm certainly not advocating that all of the shirts discussed on this forum are in good taste (the “jack be nimble” shirt is clearly not in good taste, but is it protected speech?), but I do think it would make for some interesting litigation. Things typically get dicey when public institution officials are left unfettered discretion to decide what is “offensive” and subsequently deny such expression in a public forum. Found a somewhat interesting law review article for any dorks out there wanting to brush up on First Amendment theory and self-serving case law: http://lawreview.law.pitt.edu/issues/67/67.3/Wasserman.pdf. I haven’t come close to reading the whole article or studying this issue in particular...just thought I'd add some fuel to what could truly be a meaningful discussion on what I consider an interesting topic...

Page 568 specifically addresses profanity.

Have students been turned away previously from Frost due to the content of their shirts?

I am especially curious about this. Are they going to make kids take off their coats and sweatshirts to reveal t-shirt choice at all of the other games this year?

You are completely right that it brings up a very interesting topic. Thanks for the link.

Which tends to support the notion that one who uses the F-bomb significantly more than the 'average' person, is one with a more limited vocabulary, generally incapable of expressing himself/herself in more accurate and less offensive terms.

Yes, I know; I added it to further emphasize his point.

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

Perhaps JackJD or any other lawyers on this forum care to weigh in on this. If certain shirts are banned, who wins in the event a group of rebellious students from either university sues SDSU alleging a violation of their First Amendment rights? (This is one of five essay questions. You have 90 minutes to complete the exam). With USD soon becoming part of the Summit, these types of controversies will certainly pop up more than once. I'm hardly a First Amendment scholar, and I'm certainly not advocating that all of the shirts discussed on this forum are in good taste (the “jack be nimble” shirt is clearly not in good taste, but is it protected speech?), but I do think it would make for some interesting litigation. Things typically get dicey when public institution officials are left unfettered discretion to decide what is “offensive” and subsequently deny such expression in a public forum. Found a somewhat interesting law review article for any dorks out there wanting to brush up on First Amendment theory and self-serving case law: http://lawreview.law.pitt.edu/issues/67/67.3/Wasserman.pdf. I haven’t come close to reading the whole article or studying this issue in particular...just thought I'd add some fuel to what could truly be a meaningful discussion on what I consider an interesting topic...

Page 568 specifically addresses profanity.

Have students been turned away previously from Frost due to the content of their shirts?

I'm certainly not an attorney, but my common sense law degree tells me that when you charge admission to an event, you can set some rules about behavior at said event. In other words, no shirt, no shoes, no service isn't a civil rights issue. Of course, I'm probably wrong.

[SoDakJack]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

Which tends to support the notion that one who uses the F-bomb significantly more than the 'average' person, is one with a more limited vocabulary, generally incapable of expressing himself/herself in more accurate and less offensive terms.

You took the words right out of my mouth. There is always an acceptable substitute for the f-bomb. And, 9 times out of 10 that alternate word gets the point across much better than any swear would could (the only exception being the use of a hammer during home improvement).

I actually think that a shirt that used more "academic" terms would be much funnier.

[filbert]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

Perhaps JackJD or any other lawyers on this forum care to weigh in on this. If certain shirts are banned, who wins in the event a group of rebellious students from either university sues SDSU alleging a violation of their First Amendment rights? (This is one of five essay questions. You have 90 minutes to complete the exam). With USD soon becoming part of the Summit, these types of controversies will certainly pop up more than once. I'm hardly a First Amendment scholar, and I'm certainly not advocating that all of the shirts discussed on this forum are in good taste (the “jack be nimble” shirt is clearly not in good taste, but is it protected speech?), but I do think it would make for some interesting litigation. Things typically get dicey when public institution officials are left unfettered discretion to decide what is “offensive” and subsequently deny such expression in a public forum. Found a somewhat interesting law review article for any dorks out there wanting to brush up on First Amendment theory and self-serving case law: http://lawreview.law.pitt.edu/issues/67/67.3/Wasserman.pdf. I haven’t come close to reading the whole article or studying this issue in particular...just thought I'd add some fuel to what could truly be a meaningful discussion on what I consider an interesting topic...

Page 568 specifically addresses profanity.

Have students been turned away previously from Frost due to the content of their shirts?

My non-lawyerly guess would be that the "fighting words" doctrine, along with the demonstrated history of unruly behavior at State-U games (both in Brookings and in Vermillion, by both sides, at different times) would make some attempt to control the environment a reasonable and proper response.

You also have to remember that balanced against the First-Amendment lawsuit issue would be taking reasonable and proper steps to ensure public order--to defend against the lawsuit for negligence on the part of the University if some altercation was sparked by a t-shirt--that the University "let somebody in the building with" that somebody thought was particularly offensive.

The concern is NOT to be killjoys of youthfully exhuberent behavior. The concern is to prevent things escalating to the point where whiskey bottles fly out of the stands.

The game isn't "who can wear the most cleverly offensive t-shirt," the game is basketball. All us old farts understand the urge to push the boundaries--we were college-age kids too, once. But in order to push the boundaries, there need to be boundaries against which to push.

[RabbitObsessed]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

I encourage everyone to give the article a read, as it is very interesting and thought provoking, especially the section about profanity. It is a very gray issue.

I enjoyed this excerpt:

"The level of discourse for adults cannot be reduced to what is fit or proper for children. Similarly, the level of discourse cannot be reduced to what is acceptable to the most sensitive adults. In a mixed audience, there are two possibilities. First, children unavoidably hear or see some “adult” expression and sensitive adults hear or see what offends them. Or, second, we reduce the level of speech at the stadium to what is suitable for a sandbox. Since the latter is impermissible as a matter of free-speech principle, the former is, in some degree, inevitable.

The problem is even more difficult at college arenas, because the intended audience is not families with young children, but the adult eighteen- to twentyyear-old undergraduates who dominate the university community. While families—children of faculty, alumni, and area residents—are an expected part of the audience, they are not the target and thus should not provide the baseline for the appropriate level or manner of fan expression."

[RabbitObsessed]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

"What of Maryland students who chant “Duck Fuke” or Kansas students wearing “Muck Fizzou” T-shirts—both are obvious plays on the profanity that draw meaning only by reference to it, without employing the magic word?"

Or Buck the Fison?

Interesting topic

[22jack]

Re: USD vs State rivalry shirts

Before every game there is a sportsmanship announcement done. It says that the NCAA, The Summit League, SDSU promote good sportsmanship, etc... Offensive language weather spoken or printed on a shirt falls under that category. Someone could be removed if they do not follow the rule. Do not know if it has ever been done.