Elk Point Yotes?

[SDSUAlum08]

Re: Elk Point Yotes?

I thought this was a thread joking about the law school moving. Yikes. Can't get students there so we'll move it to Sioux Falls? Don't blame them, but I'd be pissed if I lived in Verm after that comment.

Couple things....USD is moving it to Sioux Falls to help enrollment because of money. That's how the education system works now. Same at SDSU. And do we REALLY need more lawyers anyways? I think we're all good.

[JackJD]

Re: Elk Point Yotes?

I thought this was a thread joking about the law school moving. Yikes. Can't get students there so we'll move it to Sioux Falls? Don't blame them, but I'd be pissed if I lived in Verm after that comment.

Couple things....USD is moving it to Sioux Falls to help enrollment because of money. That's how the education system works now. Same at SDSU. And do we REALLY need more lawyers anyways? I think we're all good.

No, USD is thinking about what it can do to increase bar-exam pass rates (not a problem unique to USD -- bar exam pass rates have been dropping in most states) and the best way to do that is to try to attract students with better LSAT test results and undergrad grade point averages.

And, yes, we need lawyers in this State. The law schools filled up in the 1970s and those lawyers are now hitting retirement. Many communities in South Dakota, including several county seats, no longer have resident attorneys.

[SDSUAlum08]

Re: Elk Point Yotes?

No, USD is thinking about what it can do to increase bar-exam pass rates (not a problem unique to USD -- bar exam pass rates have been dropping in most states) and the best way to do that is to try to attract students with better LSAT test results and undergrad grade point averages.

And, yes, we need lawyers in this State. The law schools filled up in the 1970s and those lawyers are now hitting retirement. Many communities in South Dakota, including several county seats, no longer have resident attorneys.

Thanks for the clarification. Still too many lawyers.

[Nidaros]

Re: Elk Point Yotes?

No, USD is thinking about what it can do to increase bar-exam pass rates (not a problem unique to USD -- bar exam pass rates have been dropping in most states) and the best way to do that is to try to attract students with better LSAT test results and undergrad grade point averages.

And, yes, we need lawyers in this State. The law schools filled up in the 1970s and those lawyers are now hitting retirement. Many communities in South Dakota, including several county seats, no longer have resident attorneys.

Will this solve rural crisis where there are no lawyers? If you attract candidates with higher LSAT scores, where will they hang their shingles? SF no doubt. I think this might be an argument to leave the school in Vermillion. Of course there are those who like the slower pace of rural society, so who knows. I think we do need lawyers. Only an idiot can represent himself in court of law. Maybe we need to watch Cousin Vinny a time or two.

[Nidaros]

Re: Elk Point Yotes?

Thanks for the clarification. Still too many lawyers.

Wrong, if you are west river and there is no lawyer within 50 miles, its a pain to drive to one miles away.

[JackJD]

Re: Elk Point Yotes?

Links to two stories in today's Argus Leader on the talk about the law school moving to Sioux Falls (again, just speculative talk at this point although a committee is being formed to consider such matters):

USD student and alumni reaction:

http://www.argusleader.com/story/new...ove/336109001/


Vermillion businesses irked:

http://www.argusleader.com/story/new...ove/336147001/

[Nidaros]

Re: Elk Point Yotes?

Links to two stories in today's Argus Leader on the talk about the law school moving to Sioux Falls (again, just speculative talk at this point although a committee is being formed to consider such matters):

USD student and alumni reaction:

http://www.argusleader.com/story/new...ove/336109001/


Vermillion businesses irked:

http://www.argusleader.com/story/new...ove/336147001/

These two articles show that this is not an easy decision.

[Jacked_Up]

Re: Elk Point Yotes?

I understand why most of the medical school is in Sioux Falls rather than Vermillion. That makes sense.

However, considering Vermillion's need for more jobs for students and an overall economic boost, I don't understand why USD is investing in a large industrial park in Sioux Falls (a city with all kinds of filled, partly filled and unfilled business parks) rather than trying to develop a substantial business park in its home base. It's like the USD administration has given up on Vermillion and wants out.

I agree with JackJD and Nidaros that South Dakota needs a good law school somewhere. If I were a student or faculty member I'd probably want it in Sioux Falls. If it's not going to stay in Vermillion, I say move it Brookings. A state law school should be in a state university environment.

[jackmd]

Re: Elk Point Yotes?

This seems to be a brash reaction to the recent difficulty with a low pass rate for the bar exam. The solution isn't moving the law school..... it's reducing the class size and improving their preparation for the exam.

[jackmd]

Re: Elk Point Yotes?

I understand why most of the medical school is in Sioux Falls rather than Vermillion. That makes sense.

However, considering Vermillion's need for more jobs for students and an overall economic boost, I don't understand why USD is investing in a large industrial park in Sioux Falls (a city with all kinds of filled, partly filled and unfilled business parks) rather than trying to develop a substantial business park in its home base. It's like the USD administration has given up on Vermillion and wants out.

I agree with JackJD and Nidaros that South Dakota needs a good law school somewhere. If I were a student or faculty member I'd probably want it in Sioux Falls. If it's not going to stay in Vermillion, I say move it Brookings. A state law school should be in a state university environment.

The medical school isn't in Sioux Falls. The medical school is in multiple locations but every medical student spends 2 years in Vermillion in the classrooms at the modern and very nice Lee Medicine building. Then, the students begin their clinical years at one of the 3 campuses located in Yankton, Rapid City or Sioux Falls. This is because the hospital patients and patients in general are in these locations.

This is the way it has been since the inception of the medical school.

[filbert]

Re: Elk Point Yotes?

And then the business school will want to come to Brookings too.

I have no problem with this.

On the other hand, I recall an episode in SDSU's history where there were those who were miffed with a proposal to move all the engineering programs to the School of Mines, so . . . well . . .

[JackJD]

Re: Elk Point Yotes?

This seems to be a brash reaction to the recent difficulty with a low pass rate for the bar exam. The solution isn't moving the law school..... it's reducing the class size and improving their preparation for the exam.

This is a good summary of the problem and the practical solution. Reduction in class size has already occurred -- I think first year class this year is about 55, down from 75 or more in recent, prior years. That step along will automatically "raise" the average profile of the entering students because some students admitted in the recent past are not being admitted now, thereby lopping off lower LSAT scores and/or grade points (which isn't to say they are not qualified students -- they're just not "as qualified" based on a test and grade point average. Interesting development starting with respect to the LSAT (Law School Admissions Test -- the standardized test used for decades for law school admissions): law schools have been questioning its utility and this year, Harvard announced that it would consider the Graduate Record Exam in lieu of the LSAT for admissions purposes. Other schools will follow.

The law school's next goal is to increase class size back to where it works better financially (75 to 90 range) but do so with the better-qualified students. So, it's a recruiting issue. Apparently some want to discuss the move to Sioux Falls because it may be an easier sell to prospective students who can select from several law schools.

The law school is also ramping up recruiting efforts of top SDSU students who have been going to law school outside South Dakota.

(Since this is a smack thread Maybe we should start a movement to have the South Dakota School of Law moved to Brookings. Think of the possibilities. One example: with the College of Engineering, we could develop a great patent law emphasis. [Do many know USD had engineering degrees up until the very early 1950s?]

[jbjack]

Re: Elk Point Yotes?

A couple of thoughts from a not so recent U law grad:

1. The law school building is dated and needs significant work.

2. The building was built by legislative requirement that it accommodate no more than 75 students per class. My class was 70. It was much more common in those days for classes to be in the range of 80 -90. The U, like many schools, used it as a cash cow with unrealistic and even misleading employment prospects for it's graduates. Keep in mind that from time to time, certain lawyer legislators, U grads no less, have floated the idea of closing the school altogether. I believe Lee Schoenbeck made the suggestion within the last ten years.

3. The Sioux Falls University center was a good idea that did not anticipate that nontraditional and distance learning would migrate to the internet. The law School needs extensive renovation. Meanwhile, available classroom space is available in Sioux Falls.

4. Vermillion sucks. As a lawyer in a town larger than Vermillion, I find it hard to recruit attorneys. My colleagues in even larger cities struggle as well. Most law grads would rather be unemployed in Sioux Falls than work in rural areas. Why would law school recruitment be any different? I commuted to school because Vermillion sucks. If there is available classroom space for cheaper and better candidates to be had, then a move makes all that sense in the world.

5. Recruitment of faculty should be kept in mind as well. Vermillion sucks. I wasn't out of school long before I appreciated that many members of the faculty suite were there because of low expectations and minimal research requirements. It's tough for the law review to turn down professors that can't be avoided with limited class offerings even when they offer up such tripe as "movie quotes to use in closing argument" for publication. Adjunct availability should be kept in mind a well. Much larger pool in Sioux falls. More adjuncts mean fewer tenured faculty would be required means greater savings.

6. Did I mention Vermillion sucks? Nonetheless, as one who usually has an appreciation for small towns I'd hate to see mecca peach more of rural South Dakota. But as a grad of the school it's hard to say that the school would be better served by staying in Vermillion.

[slosho]

Re: Elk Point Yotes?

A couple of thoughts from a not so recent U law grad:

1. The law school building is dated and needs significant work.

2. The building was built by legislative requirement that it accommodate no more than 75 students per class. My class was 70. It was much more common in those days for classes to be in the range of 80 -90. The U, like many schools, used it as a cash cow with unrealistic and even misleading employment prospects for it's graduates. Keep in mind that from time to time, certain lawyer legislators, U grads no less, have floated the idea of closing the school altogether. I believe Lee Schoenbeck made the suggestion within the last ten years.

3. The Sioux Falls University center was a good idea that did not anticipate that nontraditional and distance learning would migrate to the internet. The law School needs extensive renovation. Meanwhile, available classroom space is available in Sioux Falls.

4. Vermillion sucks. As a lawyer in a town larger than Vermillion, I find it hard to recruit attorneys. My colleagues in even larger cities struggle as well. Most law grads would rather be unemployed in Sioux Falls than work in rural areas. Why would law school recruitment be any different? I commuted to school because Vermillion sucks. If there is available classroom space for cheaper and better candidates to be had, then a move makes all that sense in the world.

5. Recruitment of faculty should be kept in mind as well. Vermillion sucks. I wasn't out of school long before I appreciated that many members of the faculty suite were there because of low expectations and minimal research requirements. It's tough for the law review to turn down professors that can't be avoided with limited class offerings even when they offer up such tripe as "movie quotes to use in closing argument" for publication. Adjunct availability should be kept in mind a well. Much larger pool in Sioux falls. More adjuncts mean fewer tenured faculty would be required means greater savings.

6. Did I mention Vermillion sucks? Nonetheless, as one who usually has an appreciation for small towns I'd hate to see mecca peach more of rural South Dakota. But as a grad of the school it's hard to say that the school would be better served by staying in Vermillion.

Move the law school to Brookings and watch it thrive.

[Jacked_Up]

Re: Elk Point Yotes?

Good points, jbjack.

The more this conversation goes on at academic and political levels, the more the intent appears to be to relocate the law school in the University Center in Sioux Falls. The University Center has become an unnecessary and expensive drag on the state's higher education system. Officials are scrambling to find new uses for the buildings, which are nice. Instead of becoming the law school, maybe they should be used as part of Sioux Falls' next public high school.