its in the cards

[bigticket1]

Re: its in the cards

Scutaro didn't have to stand there. He shouldn't have guessed holliday would try to break up the double play.

Plus retaliation is probably not a smart idea in a close playoff series. Dirty play no hard play yes questionable play yes.

If that play wasn't dirty,what would be ? The second baseman was behind the bag,and the runner didn't start his slide until he had crossed the bag. The second baseman didn't have to stand there ? Where was he supposed to be - center field ?

[goon]

Re: its in the cards

If that play wasn't dirty,what would be ? The second baseman was behind the bag,and the runner didn't start his slide until he had crossed the bag. The second baseman didn't have to stand there ? Where was he supposed to be - center field ?

Several times cards players just got the sure out and got out of the way with out standing flat trying to force a play. He was late sliding but never went out of the basepath to gwt him which happens more often then not.

[MontanaRabbit]

Re: its in the cards

Several times cards players just got the sure out and got out of the way with out standing flat trying to force a play. He was late sliding but never went out of the basepath to gwt him which happens more often then not.

Ummm...the baseline does not extend past second base so by your definition he would be out of the baseline. His ass hit the top of the base......dirty play....hands down.

I'm as much about playing the game hard as anyone, but anyone with any knowledge of baseball would realize that's not the correct way to break-up a double play.

[goon]

Re: its in the cards

Ummm...the baseline does not extend past second base so by your definition he would be out of the baseline. His ass hit the top of the base......dirty play....hands down.

I'm as much about playing the game hard as anyone, but anyone with any knowledge of baseball would realize that's not the correct way to break-up a double play.

You've never seen a stole base attempt where a guy slide past the bag should they be called out if they slide past the bag? Really I guess we are going to have to disagree not a dirty play. He didn't intend to hurt I guess that is what I think a dirty play is. A hard play is he went in hard to break up a double play.

[MontanaRabbit]

Re: its in the cards

You've never seen a stole base attempt where a guy slide past the bag should they be called out if they slide past the bag? Really I guess we are going to have to disagree not a dirty play. He didn't intend to hurt I guess that is what I think a dirty play is. A hard play is he went in hard to break up a double play.

Are you really trying to compare when a guy stealing a base goes in head first and his momentum carries him past the bag to what Holiday did? Really? Apples and oranges.

Holiday didn't START the slide until he was on top of 2nd base. I recommend reading my previous sentence again.

For the record I don't think he intended to hurt Scuturo, but that does not make what he did a clean play. A 2nd basemen is taught to avoid getting taken out by doing two things, moving laterally away from the base (either towards 3rd or left field) or using the base as a shield (what Scuturo did).

Holiday knows he screwed up. Watch his interview after the game. He knows he has one coming.

[witness]

Re: its in the cards

Heres the video:http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...s_mlb&c_id=mlb
I really don't see how it wasn't dirty. It was a late slide and high not to mention Holliday didn't even touch the ground before the base. I don't see how anyone would compare this to a person sliding headfirst and gliding past the bag while still holding onto the bag. It is not as powerful, doesn't allow the players leg like Scutaros to get caught underneath, and in reality there is more a chance for the runner to get hurt sliding headfirst than the second basemen. Giants are lucky that Scutaro didn't tear his ACL. I wouldn't mind a good old 95+mph fastball straight to the ribs. As Cris Carter would say, "C'MON MAN!!"

[goon]

Re: its in the cards

So you guys think the giants should use a dirty play and try to hurt holiday? That's weak sauce on the giants part plus its a close series why risk it getting out of hand. Scutoro didn't have to make a double play he took a chance and holiday had a hard slide call it what you want but it wasn't a dirty play. When a lineman hits the qb late is that a dirty play too? I see I am the minority here but the giants trying to hurt him doesn't help them.

The arguement I made he didn't go out of the baseline. He didn't go left or right to try to get him he slide late to break it up. Runners slide past a base all the time so your arguement doesn't work just because he was past the base go over the bag doesn't mean he went out of the baseline is my point. I am pretty sure guys at second are also taught to get out of the eay or take the for sure out.

Like I said agree to disagree. A dirty play in my book is when you try to hurt someone. Unless your saying holiday when with the intent to hurt him.

[witness]

Re: its in the cards

So you guys think the giants should use a dirty play and try to hurt holiday? That's weak sauce on the giants part plus its a close series why risk it getting out of hand. Scutoro didn't have to make a double play he took a chance and holiday had a hard slide call it what you want but it wasn't a dirty play. When a lineman hits the qb late is that a dirty play too? I see I am the minority here but the giants trying to hurt him doesn't help them.

The arguement I made he didn't go out of the baseline. He didn't go left or right to try to get him he slide late to break it up. Runners slide past a base all the time so your arguement doesn't work just because he was past the base go over the bag doesn't mean he went out of the baseline is my point. I am pretty sure guys at second are also taught to get out of the eay or take the for sure out.

Like I said agree to disagree. A dirty play in my book is when you try to hurt someone. Unless your saying holiday when with the intent to hurt him.

1)Uh.... When a lineman hits a QB late it is a dirty play hence the Roughing the Passer Penalty......
2)He went past the base because he didn't even hit the freaking ground till he was PAST the base, when you slide normally feetfirst or headfirst you hit the ground BEFORE the base not after the base.
3)Throwing a good old 95+ mph to the ribs is exactly what Holliday needs, as he could have easily tore Scutaro's ACL. There is a hard slide to break up a double play and there is a hard slide that is reckless that can hurt the second baseman and is classified as dirty to many people. Holliday did the latter. Listen I know you are a Cards fan, but if Mauer did the same thing, I would have said it was dirty and unncessary.

[MontanaRabbit]

Re: its in the cards

Throwing a good old 95+ mph to the ribs is exactly what Holliday needs, as he could have easily tore Scutaro's ACL.

Actually, it's probably better to drill Beltran or Molina or Freese. Then Holliday can deal with one of them being unhappy after the game because their ribs hurt.

Some people do not understand baseball and how the game polices itself. Throwing at someones mid-section is not a dirty play. It's not gonna end their career or season. They will be uncomfortable for a while which might make them think twice about doing what they did to deserve getting drilled. And if it's a teammate that gets drilled because of your actions....they will let you know you better clean it up.

[goon]

Re: its in the cards

1)Uh.... When a lineman hits a QB late it is a dirty play hence the Roughing the Passer Penalty......
2)He went past the base because he didn't even hit the freaking ground till he was PAST the base, when you slide normally feetfirst or headfirst you hit the ground BEFORE the base not after the base.
3)Throwing a good old 95+ mph to the ribs is exactly what Holliday needs, as he could have easily tore Scutaro's ACL. There is a hard slide to break up a double play and there is a hard slide that is reckless that can hurt the second baseman and is classified as dirty to many people. Holliday did the latter. Listen I know you are a Cards fan, but if Mauer did the same thing, I would have said it was dirty and unncessary.

Its a penalty but its not done by a player trying to hurt the qb its done because he was late on the play or frustrated or just took an extra step to much so their is a huge difference. there is a difference you dont seem to understand. Scutaro could have moved out of the way but he decided to stay their to try to make the play. he probably knew that holiday would come barrelling down to break it up. Being a fan of the team or not, if it wasnt a cardinals i would probably feel the same way. if mauer would have done it i would have said it was a hard play trying to break up a double play. At least if you can admit you thought holiday only went in hard to try to hurt him. if you do they your right it was a dirty play. I guess i see it differently.

Throwing at a player can be dangerous and cause serious injury and its done with the intent to hurt them. retaliating and the unwritten rules of baseball can really get out of hand. It was bush league of Hamels to throw at Harper just because he is new to the league, thats the unwritten rule a lot of guys follow and a lot of it is petty. the nice thing is its played on the field and their are no penalties that umps use to affect the game.

The baseball gods had their way considering holiday bobbled a hit from Scutaro that score a few runs so. Plus retaliating on the road would probably not do much to help the giants, they got the win and thats what should be important to them. They should look at the big picture of trying to win the series. if they focus on the petty things like trying to hit holiday, then they are not playing to win the game.

quote Herm here. You play to win the game.

[bigticket1]

Re: its in the cards

Its a penalty but its not done by a player trying to hurt the qb its done because he was late on the play or frustrated or just took an extra step to much so their is a huge difference. there is a difference you dont seem to understand. Scutaro could have moved out of the way but he decided to stay their to try to make the play. he probably knew that holiday would come barrelling down to break it up. Being a fan of the team or not, if it wasnt a cardinals i would probably feel the same way. if mauer would have done it i would have said it was a hard play trying to break up a double play. At least if you can admit you thought holiday only went in hard to try to hurt him. if you do they your right it was a dirty play. I guess i see it differently.

Throwing at a player can be dangerous and cause serious injury and its done with the intent to hurt them. retaliating and the unwritten rules of baseball can really get out of hand. It was bush league of Hamels to throw at Harper just because he is new to the league, thats the unwritten rule a lot of guys follow and a lot of it is petty. the nice thing is its played on the field and their are no penalties that umps use to affect the game.

The baseball gods had their way considering holiday bobbled a hit from Scutaro that score a few runs so. Plus retaliating on the road would probably not do much to help the giants, they got the win and thats what should be important to them. They should look at the big picture of trying to win the series. if they focus on the petty things like trying to hit holiday, then they are not playing to win the game.

quote Herm here. You play to win the game.

A hard slide that injures a player isn't necessarily dirty. When Steve Swisher took out Nishioka last season and broke his leg,it wasn't considered dirty because Nishioka didn't know how to protect himself. Scutaro did protect himself by making the play behind the bag. And I don't think the baseball gods are anywhere close to evening the score yet.

[NebraskaJack]

Re: its in the cards

So you guys think the giants should use a dirty play and try to hurt holiday? That's weak sauce on the giants part plus its a close series why risk it getting out of hand. Scutoro didn't have to make a double play he took a chance and holiday had a hard slide call it what you want but it wasn't a dirty play. When a lineman hits the qb late is that a dirty play too? I see I am the minority here but the giants trying to hurt him doesn't help them.

The arguement I made he didn't go out of the baseline. He didn't go left or right to try to get him he slide late to break it up. Runners slide past a base all the time so your arguement doesn't work just because he was past the base go over the bag doesn't mean he went out of the baseline is my point. I am pretty sure guys at second are also taught to get out of the eay or take the for sure out.

Like I said agree to disagree. A dirty play in my book is when you try to hurt someone. Unless your saying holiday when with the intent to hurt him.

"Scutoro didn't have to make a double play"............I think you needed to leave this part out of the argument because that doesn't make any sense, of course he needed to try and turn the double play. I have a question though, if he would have slid 6 feet to the inside of the bag and ended up on the infield grass would that have been acceptable? Either way he would have missed the bag by 6 feet. You play hard and you play to win but ending up 6 feet past the bag on a slide is beyond the spirit of the rule. Would he end up that far past if he was trying to steal? If a lineman hits a QB about 4 seconds after he releases the ball, thats a dirty play....that's about how far out of the realm Holiday's play was.

[goon]

Re: its in the cards

"Scutoro didn't have to make a double play"............I think you needed to leave this part out of the argument because that doesn't make any sense, of course he needed to try and turn the double play. I have a question though, if he would have slid 6 feet to the inside of the bag and ended up on the infield grass would that have been acceptable? Either way he would have missed the bag by 6 feet. You play hard and you play to win but ending up 6 feet past the bag on a slide is beyond the spirit of the rule. Would he end up that far past if he was trying to steal? If a lineman hits a QB about 4 seconds after he releases the ball, thats a dirty play....that's about how far out of the realm Holiday's play was.

Well it does make sense because many times players take the for sure out and avoid any possible collison. So you think guys who hit the qb late are just trying to hurt the qb? You think its a dirty play beacuse holidays only intent was to hurt scutaro? He didn't go left or right of the bag which happens a lot when guys try to break up a play. I don't expect everyone to agree with my opinion.

[witness]

Re: its in the cards

The spin on Hunter Pence's double was crazy. Just shattered the bat, an handcuffed the shortstop. Sports science needs to do a segment on that line drive.

[MontanaRabbit]

Re: its in the cards

The spin on Hunter Pence's double was crazy. Just shattered the bat, an handcuffed the shortstop. Sports science needs to do a segment on that line drive.

Yeah it was. The ball actually hit the bat three different times. Had the bat not broken, it probably would have gone to Kozma's right.

The cards finally played like the team that would have missed the playoffs by 7 games last year. They caught some breaks to make it this far (Braves making three errors and leaving a dozen guys on base....the Nationals without one of the top 3 starters in baseball). Not sure I like the extra team getting in and the one game deal. Make it a three game series.

Should be a good series. Both teams are fairly even. I will give the advantage to San Fran because of a better pen.