UND and possible name change

[BitsTD]

Re: UND and possible name change

Rename them the "Fighting Warbirds" for the AFB that is their and put a fighter helmet on all the logos.

[UTH]

Re: UND and possible name change

Rename them the "Fighting Warbirds" for the AFB that is their and put a fighter helmet on all the logos.

One small problem - There haven't been any fighters there for decades. IIRC, there are now KC135 refuelers. Under the plan to shift things around, its tenant units are supposed to have UAVs and C130s.

[SDSF]

Re: UND and possible name change

Pro:
You don't realize how you summed up one legal case and all the rhethic and what not that has gone on at UND with this one sentence. Getting permission is the big big key for UND in order to keep the logo.

It is my understanding that UND does have permission to use the name. It is the NCAA that has stepped in and has taken a stance on the usage of Native American logo and/or mascots and how each school is to get approval. UND had filed suit against the NCAA on how they did not follow its own bylaws when it created this action. UND was correct in it law suit but soon realized that the NCAA would simply amend its bylaws to allow for it to stand. So, they simply settled on the suit. So, UND is going through process of working with the appropriate governing entities to seek usage. But to say UND did not have an agreement is incorrect.

Way too many people that are connected with UND do not get nor do they accept this simple thought.

Again, UND did have an agreement, but the NCAA has set new rules for allowing the usage of Native American names. I believe that this is the fly in the ointment for many people. Many people are saying why are we going through all of this again. Simply stated it is one of the reason I want the name changed, the other being if they do not want UND to use it. It is there right to say "No". UND should not use it. But, some of the barter for name stuff from both sides is not appropriate.

You only have to go to Siouxsports.com to feel the arrogance about keeping the logo and the right to wear these oversized hockey jersey to the Ralph. They sense it is a tradition, but hardly a tradition since day one. The name change occurred in 1930.

I have read many of threads associated with the changing of the names - many of the posts are very well thought out and many are not on both sides of the topics. In fact, I think that I have seen you post on that site several times. Personally, I have thought that Siouxsports.com has been a great forum for both sides and I have seen opinions changed via the information presented within those threads. I think that it is funny that you rip ss.com which allows for open communications from both sides versus the site you linked which looks a bit one sided to me, but hey that is just me. Some people can not handle differing views.

I spend a certain amount of time in North Dakota and have followed this issue through the media. Many of the honorable alums from UND are having a hard time defending the use of the logo over the resistance of the Tribrbal rights of the reservations who insist that they dont have permission to use the logo.

Again, UND did have permission for the usage of the name. NCAA has stated new rules and UND is following through with the new process. The Tribal rights will be honored.

UND has perhaps the largest Native American enrollment of all the schools in the Dakota. They have great medical programs that train people to go back to the reservations to be medical professionals. There are other programs to. To those who have had nothing to do with establishment of these programs, there seems to be a reasoning that since the University of North Dakota has established these programs, the UND then has the permission to use the logo. Never mind the dignity of the Native Americans who were here first, and somehow since we were here second, we deserve the right to use this logo. It has nothing to do with comparing the logo with those of European orgins such as Irish or Vikings. What also is not recognized is that those logos have a certain amount of pride in there useage that is felt by those of Eureopean orgins. The Native American do not feel the same about Sioux usage.

No comment

There is one other angle to this controversy, and that is the word Sioux is a French word that the early French fur traders gave to the Native Americans and it means "snake". The early French traded and sometimes used Natives for guides etc, but the choice of this word does not connote trust. Lakota is the perferred word of self reference as I understand the issue.

The word Sioux is a term that has been perpetuated through time by people of Eureopean orgins and that is why the Tribe leadership that is looking to fit in the modern world do not approve of its useage.

I think hammersmith did a very nice job on this topic.

What I have seen of UND in terms of campus and academic programs, they are first class as an institution. I hope they will agree to change the logo and continue with the great programs that they have for Native Americans. UND does not equal USD by any means IMO, but that is just me.

I agree with you that UND is a first class institution and I do not support a change to any programs based on a change of a logo. I believe that higher education in the Midwest (UxD and xDSUs) and Native Americans have much much larger issues to address. It is unfortunate that the tensions of those relationships come out in the form of a "Logo" and one instituation being a target. In two years, when this has been resolved and UND has a new name (I hope). Have we really resolved the cause of those tensions? I do not think so and so it goes - who next!?!?

[Hammersmith]

Re: UND and possible name change

SDSF, the "agreement" that I believe you are referring to is open to debate. One of the two main Sioux tribes, Standing Rock, has never given approval and, in fact, has demanded UND change the name several times. The other, Spirit Lake, gave a very limited statement in 2000. Basically, they said they weren't going to approve of UND's use of the name, but they weren't going to oppose it either. The exact wording was: "as long as something positive comes from this controversy, (the tribe is) not opposed to keeping the 'Sioux' name and present logo at UND." Not exactly a ringing endorsement. The Spirit Lake tribal council has never officially clarified its position despite numerous requests by UND, the REA, the NCAA, and individual tribal members. Additionally, the 2000 SL resolution came with several requirements that UND was supposed to comply with, but didn't. The other North Dakota non-Sioux tribes and the Sisseton-Wahpeton Sioux(officially a South Dakota tribe) have all passed resolutions opposing the name(with the possible exception of the Turtle Mountain Band of Chippewa; I couldn't find anything either way).


As I took my evening walk(damn, it's cold out!), I tried to put together a rational overview of my feelings toward university nicknames(not pro or high school). The following is what I came up with. I don't expect anyone to necessarily agree with me(or even read it), but I thought it might clear some things up(or at least help me clear things up in my own mind).


I believe that a university takes on a certain responsibility when it chooses to use a nickname/image/mascot to represent itself in its endeavors; including athletics. The level of responsibility varies depending on the nickname. After some thought, I decided on a 0-5 scale to express my thoughts. It's more actually more complicated than that, but six levels are a good place to start.

Level 0: This level consists of abstracts; names based on colors or emotions. This level carries the least responsibility(really none) because you can't offend an abstract. Of course, if you name yourself the Black Rage... but that would be stupid. The down side is that these names are the most boring and are the hardest for your fans to get behind.

Level 1: Animals without note. Not to offend any of you fine folk, but jackrabbits would fall into this category. The responsibility at this level is minimal; basic animal kindness. Don't stuff the animals into tiny cages and let children shoot at them with BB guns. Stuff like that.

Level 2: Significant animals and weather phenomena. Bison fall into this category. It's not because bison are really better than rabbits, it's just that a university can do more with them. A school with eagles as their mascot could sponsor and maintain eagle nests in the wild. A school like NDSU could have bison breeding programs or help restore bison habitats. A school like Miami could have a strong meteorology program. Etc.

Level 3: Human occupations like cowboys, saints or warriors(generic). Because these names/mascots are not based on a particular ethnic or cultural group, they don't carry the same level of responsibility. Still, because they are based on humans, they should be treated with a greater level of respect than animal-, nature-, or abstract-based mascots. A university with a cowboy mascot could have a strong range sciences program or a good American West section in the history department. A university using buccaneers could have a small museum featuring pirate artifacts or a maritime law program(I'm really stretching for that one).

Level 4: Specific human groups that no longer exist. These are broken into two sub-groups. First, are those groups that died out more than 250 years ago(Spartans, Knights, Vikings). The later are those groups that ceased to exist since that time(Minutemen, Colonials, 49ers). These nicknames should be treated with nearly the highest level of respect and they have almost the greatest load of responsibility. Those responsibilities could include academic departments strong in that era of history, strong language programs if the name comes from a foreign land, reasonably extensive museum collection, one or more endowed faculty positions in that area; stuff like that. The recent group is different in that those names should only be used if there is a direct connection to the university. For example, a California school should not adopt the name Minutemen; that should only be used by schools in Northeastern colonial states. Likewise, a Vermont college shouldn't use the name 49ers.

Level 5: The top of the heap(and the most controversial): specific ethnic or cultural groups that still exist(Sioux, Irish, Seminoles). For the most part, these names should only be used if the students, faculty, athletes, leadership and school history are directly tied to the ethnic or cultural group in question. Notre Dame can be the Fighting Irish because many of the students, leaders, athletes, etc. have been Irish and they have a level of ownership of the name. The same would be true if a college in a strongly Scottish area was the Scots. Another example is the Penn Quakers. While it was not founded by Quakers and does not have a history of Quaker leadership, the State's founder and namesake, William Penn, was a Quaker, and an important one at that. That's a reasonably strong link, though the name must still be treated with high respect since the Quakers are still around.

The most dangerous combination comes from a group that still exists and a university with no direct ties to that group. The Sioux and UND and the Seminoles and FSU fall into this category. In this situation, the cultural or ethnic group MUST have a say in whether, and how, the name can be used. From my understanding of the FSU situation, FSU formed a committee many years ago(long before the NCAA decision) to handle all issues with the Seminole name and imagery. That committee includes a strong Seminole Tribe voice. Also, I believe that FSU has been paying the Florida Seminole Tribe a small royalty on all merchandise with the Seminole name or image. Merchandise with only FSU or Florida State on it does not include the royalty. I also don't believe the university has to pay anything for internal university objects like banners or team uniforms; just the stuff they sell for profit. Since the Florida Seminole Tribe has had a say for years(or decades?) on how their name was used and also a small cut of the profits, is it any wonder that they told the NCAA to go f- themselves when the NCAA tried to force FSU to change their nickname? In contrast, UND has never allowed the North Dakota Sioux Tribes a permanent say in how the Sioux name and logo was used. They occasionally went to the tribal leadership, but only when UND needed something. And paying the Sioux Tribes a small(2-5%) cut of the profits? Hah! Is it any wonder that none of the Sioux Tribes are going to bat for UND in the same way the Florida Seminoles did for FSU? Of course, now it's too late for UND. There's way too much bad blood between everyone and no one can turn back the clock. Had UND's leadership realized 20 years ago that the status quo couldn't be maintained forever, they could've started to build bridges that would've helped them with the NCAA today.

In my opinion, UND needed to do three things 20+ years ago. First, they needed to drop the Fighting from Fighting Sioux without any prompting from the tribes. Second, they needed to form a 5-8 person committee including an official representative from both the Spirit Lake and the Standing Rock Tribes. This committee would also include the UND president(or a representative), the athletic director and an academic faculty member. Additional spots could be given to more athletic personnel, an ND legislator, a Grand Forks business representative, etc. There would also need to be some veto power or appeal process so that the Sioux committee members could not be overruled and ignored on important issues. This committee would approve all uses of the Sioux name and logo on merchandise, uniforms, banners, etc. Finally, UND would give a small cut of the merchandising profits to the Sioux tribes. It probably would only amount to a few tens of thousands a year, and several decades of payments would've cost less than the NCAA/UND lawsuit ended up costing the supporters of UND. Had the Sioux tribal leadership been corrupt and tried to hold UND over a barrel during this NCAA mess, UND could've just walked away, taking their money and access with them.


Oh well, I've pontificated enough and it's well past the time I should be tucked into bed. If you've read this far, you deserve a medal ... or some psychiatric help; I'll let you decide which. One last thing: While I'm a Bison alumnus and fan, I don't necessarily have anything against UND using the Sioux nickname. In fact, my advice to Bison fans was to completely stay out of UND's business on this one. I don't think that contradicts what I've said above. I believe UND's leadership from 20+ years ago failed them, but that's not the same as hating UND. In fact, I've tried to keep my mouth shut for the most part until after the lawsuit was settled and the matter mostly decided. G'night.

[MilwaukeeJacksAlum]

Re: UND and possible name change

Maybe I'm becoming too much of a cynic in my mid thirties, but I think it will all come down to $$. UND will ultimately use the suggestive powers of the almighty dollar to help the tribes agree to usage of the name/mascot. It always comes down to money. I will harbor a guess that the only reason the tribes haven't given permission already is merely because they haven't been offered enough money. I am not for either side and will tuck my political views on mascots neatly into my pocket and keep them there. But, in the end, this will be a money issue. Some day in the not so distant future, the Tribes and UND will have a jovial press conference where both sides will have on their best fake smiles, best suits and traditional native american garb, and a mutual agreement for usage of the nickname and mascot will be reached and touted as a respectful depiction of the proud heritage that is the Sioux Indian.

[BitsTD]

Re: UND and possible name change

Rename them the "Fighting Warbirds" for the AFB that is their and put a fighter helmet on all the logos.

Rename them the "Airheads".

[JimmyJack]

Re: UND and possible name change

Maybe I'm becoming too much of a cynic in my mid thirties, but I think it will all come down to $$. UND will ultimately use the suggestive powers of the almighty dollar to help the tribes agree to usage of the name/mascot. It always comes down to money. I will harbor a guess that the only reason the tribes haven't given permission already is merely because they haven't been offered enough money. I am not for either side and will tuck my political views on mascots neatly into my pocket and keep them there. But, in the end, this will be a money issue. Some day in the not so distant future, the Tribes and UND will have a jovial press conference where both sides will have on their best fake smiles, best suits and traditional native american garb, and a mutual agreement for usage of the nickname and mascot will be reached and touted as a respectful depiction of the proud heritage that is the Sioux Indian.

I don't think it's a money thing.

[Nidaros]

Re: UND and possible name change

I agree with JimmyJack, its not about money, but more so about their own dignity. I have no idea who SFSD is but I noticed he has made two posts or maybe more since I last checkd and apparently is tied to UND somehow based on the tone of his two or more posts. Notice how he disected my post which I thought I had said something important. What an ego blow!! LOL

I dont have a problem with the exceptions he took but more with the arrogance that lies below his disected points. I feel arrogance in his post and its typical of many of their alums who feel no remorse about use of the name and logo, especially the younger hockey oriented ones. It's not fair to shout racist but subtle racisim is part of it in my opinion. I wonder about their sensitity towards the Lakota living on both reservations. SFSD did not start the Native American programs on campus with his own money and if they are funded with federal funds, that not a problem. All four of the Dakota institutions rely heavily on fed funds for a number of things. At least they exist and are working programs, but the UND community should be 100 percent about sensitivty. The logo use subtracts from that percent.

These insensitive folks seem to feel they own that logo and the fact of the matter is that they dont own it. They dont have the permission from Standing Rock or Spirit Lake tribes to use the name or the logo and that is the issue and obtaining that permission is need in order to settle their dispute with the NCAA. I dont know all the details, but I really am more concerned about what happens in the SDSU community then what goes on at UND. Its an interesting topic, but I dont want it to be the focus of my life.

I think I am going to find out how to donate some shoes to Coach Nagy's project.

[BTownJack]

Re: UND and possible name change

I dont know all the details, but I really am more concerned about what happens in the SDSU community then what goes on at UND. Its an interesting topic, but I dont want it to be the focus of my life.

I think I am going to find out how to donate some shoes to Coach Nagy's project.

You sure have many long postings on this topic despite stating you are more concerned about what happens in the SDSU community and you not wanting this topic to be the focus of your life. Just an observation ;-)

If you want to donate shoes to Coach's Nagy's project you can bring your shoes to the HPER. There are two drop boxes in the lobby of the HPER.

[Nidaros]

Re: UND and possible name change

You sure have many long postings on this topic despite stating you are more concerned about what happens in the SDSU community and you not wanting this topic to be the focus of your life. Just an observation ;-)

If you want to donate shoes to Coach's Nagy's project you can bring your shoes to the HPER. There are two drop boxes in the lobby of the HPER.

Thanks I will do the drop off, and yeah I am kind of a liar.

[SDSF]

Re: UND and possible name change

I agree with JimmyJack, its not about money, but more so about their own dignity. I have no idea who SFSD is but I noticed he has made two posts or maybe more since I last checkd and apparently is tied to UND somehow based on the tone of his two or more posts. Notice how he disected my post which I thought I had said something important. What an ego blow!! LOL

I dont have a problem with the exceptions he took but more with the arrogance that lies below his disected points. I feel arrogance in his post and its typical of many of their alums who feel no remorse about use of the name and logo, especially the younger hockey oriented ones. It's not fair to shout racist but subtle racisim is part of it in my opinion. I wonder about their sensitity towards the Lakota living on both reservations. SFSD did not start the Native American programs on campus with his own money and if they are funded with federal funds, that not a problem. All four of the Dakota institutions rely heavily on fed funds for a number of things. At least they exist and are working programs, but the UND community should be 100 percent about sensitivty. The logo use subtracts from that percent.

These insensitive folks seem to feel they own that logo and the fact of the matter is that they dont own it. They dont have the permission from Standing Rock or Spirit Lake tribes to use the name or the logo and that is the issue and obtaining that permission is need in order to settle their dispute with the NCAA. I dont know all the details, but I really am more concerned about what happens in the SDSU community then what goes on at UND. Its an interesting topic, but I dont want it to be the focus of my life.

I think I am going to find out how to donate some shoes to Coach Nagy's project.

I am simply trying to set the record straight based on my understanding of the issue. If I am wrong please let me know:

Prior to the NCAA announcement: UND had permission to use the logo and name.

The NCAA announcement voided all previous agreements and stated that all programs identified shall seek permission from regional tribal governments by a set date. In response to this UND has done two things:

1) Wasted Money (ie filed suit against the NCAA) - which was settled out of court - in essence setting a new date.

2) Ask the tribal governments for a preliminary response - which has resulted in one "No" and one "I am not sure".

This is enough of a response for me to say - change the name. But, it is read as lets negotiate.

So, I think we are much closer than you think on usage of the Fighting Sioux name at UND.

1) I think that NCAA should ban all "Native American" symbols and names. Ultimately, I am frustrated by the NCAA's lack of a spine on this topic.

2) I do not approve of barter tactics by either side.

3) UND should adopt the stated goal of being a national leader in "Native American" studies, outreach programs and enrollment.

I think UND has many positive "Native American" programs and I think it is a shame that they are over shadowed by the "Logo" issue.

On your comments about me (SDSF) and your generalized comments about UND, young UND hockey fans, and siouxsports.com - "I" and I hope "they" will take those with a grain of salt. Life is too short and ultimately we all have much more important things to worry about - Peace.

[Nidaros]

Re: UND and possible name change

I am simply trying to set the record straight based on my understanding of the issue. If I am wrong please let me know:

Prior to the NCAA announcement: UND had permission to use the logo and name.

The NCAA announcement voided all previous agreements and stated that all programs identified shall seek permission from regional tribal governments by a set date. In response to this UND has done two things:

1) Wasted Money (ie filed suit against the NCAA) - which was settled out of court - in essence setting a new date.

2) Ask the tribal governments for a preliminary response - which has resulted in one "No" and one "I am not sure".

This is enough of a response for me to say - change the name. But, it is read as lets negotiate.

So, I think we are much closer than you think on usage of the Fighting Sioux name at UND.

1) I think that NCAA should ban all "Native American" symbols and names. Ultimately, I am frustrated by the NCAA's lack of a spine on this topic.

2) I do not approve of barter tactics by either side.

3) UND should adopt the stated goal of being a national leader in "Native American" studies, outreach programs and enrollment.

I think UND has many positive "Native American" programs and I think it is a shame that they are over shadowed by the "Logo" issue.

On your comments about me (SDSF) and your generalized comments about UND, young UND hockey fans, and siouxsports.com - "I" and I hope "they" will take those with a grain of salt. Life is too short and ultimately we all have much more important things to worry about - Peace.

Reading through your post, you possibly are correct in that UND had prior permission, but in settling the law suit, as I understand, the NCAA is ignoring these agreements whether they were in writing or obtained orally. I plead ignorance about the number of recognized Native American Tribes in North Dakota, but as I understand the settlement of the lawsuit between UND and the NCAA, UND has to obtain the permission from all tribes including Standing Rock and Spirit Lake tribes. This permission action required is no longer in the administration hands at UND. The equivelant to SD BOR has the job of getting that permission, and according to what I have heard on talk radio and read in the papers, it not an easy task, as these two tribes are saying "no" to the permission. So by 2010, UND will then be forced to give up the logo and name or scarifice their membership in the NCAA. These are the facts as I understand them. UND may have talked to the Tribe that owns Dakota Magic Casino, I believe they are Waphton-Sissiton tribe and they may have gotten premission from them and other tribes, but the bulldog is not fed until they have the permission from Standing Rock and Spirit Lake.

The NCAA, of which UND is a good member in standing has to follow the rules. The NCAA is about athletics but they also recognize human diginty as it applies to all races, religion and ethnic groups. I think they were right in making the policy about nicknames and also UND had the right to file a lawsuit which they did. If it seems wasteful, yeah it is if you are an UND alum who supports the goodness of the institution. To get hung up on a logo is not the Native Americans fault, they only want their dignity. The cost and what not involved in the suit lies with the Admin of UND and no one else. So yes, making a name change would be the wise thing to do after wasting all this money on a law suit that they will not win.

I do agree that logo controversy and the law suit are detracking from the existing programs, but that again is hardly a Native American problem. These programs continue and rightfully so as I can not imagine what it is like to grow up on a reservation.

So SFSD, I agree with most of what you have said.

[1stRowFANatic]

Re: UND and possible name change

SFSD,
It is my understanding, and will freely admit that this may be wrong, but the permission that UND had prior to the NCAA ruling was from a sub-committee of one of the tribal council's and that the sub-committee that gave the permission was never given the responsibility to make the determination. I believe it was a veteran's committee.

Personally, I think the NCAA action is probably reaching farther than they should, but I cannot defend UND's actions in keeping this when it seems pretty clear that the tribes no longer, if they ever did, approve of the use.

[SturgisJeff]

Re: UND and possible name change

How about the Fighting Flicker-Finger to the NCAA and political correctness.

[SDSF]

Re: UND and possible name change

SFSD,
It is my understanding, and will freely admit that this may be wrong, but the permission that UND had prior to the NCAA ruling was from a sub-committee of one of the tribal council's and that the sub-committee that gave the permission was never given the responsibility to make the determination. I believe it was a veteran's committee.

Personally, I think the NCAA action is probably reaching farther than they should, but I cannot defend UND's actions in keeping this when it seems pretty clear that the tribes no longer, if they ever did, approve of the use.

I agree, if the tribes do not want UND to use the name. They should not... here is the latest new regarding the name and the likelihood that change will be coming soon. The names of who and who has not approved the name has changed many times over the years. So, I could not confirm or deny sub-committee statements above.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/arti...57268§ion=News

http://media.www.dakotastudent.com/m...-3441821.shtml