UND and possible name change

[SUPERBUNNY]

Re: UND and possible name change

Not trying to stir the pot or be politically incorrect but UND is in a tough spot on what to do on this issue. It appears that UND's fans would just assume see no change in name. The NCAA forcing them into it gets the AD out of hot water but what will happen to their fans base after a change is made. This thread raises some interesting questions about that.

What will they do?

A. Go with something unique with North Dakota ties like Flickertail.

B. Use a more traditional name.

C. They could go with something that is a polar opposite (Roughriders, Sharp Shooters, Pioneers, etc.). A name like that may energize their fanbase that will be upset by being forced to change their identity. A name like that could be used to try and get the remaining two tribes to sign off on letting UND remain the "Fighting Sioux". There are some backlash issues but it is a thought.

Personally, I think it is a shame that they will have to change the name. The way they have used their mascot always seemed pretty classy.

They way things seemed to be run up there, a nickaname like Donkeys might fit best. Now I am kidding!

GB, GB, GJ!

SUPERBUNNY

[propar80]

Re: UND and possible name change

Not trying to stir the pot or be politically incorrect but UND is in a tough spot on what to do on this issue. It appears that UND's fans would just assume see no change in name. The NCAA forcing them into it gets the AD out of hot water but what will happen to their fans base after a change is made. This thread raises some interesting questions about that.

What will they do?

A. Go with something unique with North Dakota ties like Flickertail.

B. Use a more traditional name.

C. They could go with something that is a polar opposite (Roughriders, Sharp Shooters, Pioneers, etc.). A name like that may energize their fanbase that will be upset by being forced to change their identity. A name like that could be used to try and get the remaining two tribes to sign off on letting UND remain the "Fighting Sioux". There are some backlash issues but it is a thought.

Personally, I think it is a shame that they will have to change the name. The way they have used their mascot always seemed pretty classy.

They way things seemed to be run up there, a nickaname like Donkeys might fit best. Now I am kidding!

GB, GB, GJ!

SUPERBUNNY

How about no nickname at all???

Just...The University of North Dakota, with the "ND" logo, but change it from looking like Notre Dame's "ND" like they have now, to one of their own.
Then whenever the subject came up about why no nickname...they can explain and the "Fighting Sioux" never really goes away.

This would really stick in the craw of the PC Police.

Don't know why I'm throwing that idea out...I actually agree that if the Tribes don't give permission, it's got to go.

Go Jacks!!

[SturgisJeff]

Re: UND and possible name change

How about a name to support the local german and european community. The Fighting Buffalo Carp. They brought it here/

[JackJD]

Re: UND and possible name change

How about a name to support the local german and european community....

The Sour Krauts?

[UTH]

Re: UND and possible name change

The Sour Krauts?

Now, THAT will hit very close to home...

"The Benefactor" in his early days

[Nidaros]

Re: UND and possible name change

Don't know why I'm throwing that idea out...I actually agree that if the Tribes don't give permission, it's got to go.

Go Jacks!!

Pro:

You don't realize how you summed up one legal case and all the rhethic and what not that has gone on at UND with this one sentence. Getting permission is the big big key for UND in order to keep the logo. Way too many people that are connected with UND do not get nor do they accept this simple thought. You only have to go to Siouxsports.com to feel the arrogance about keeping the logo and the right to wear these oversized hockey jersey to the Ralph. They sense it is a tradition, but hardly a tradition since day one. The name change occurred in 1930.

I spend a certain amount of time in North Dakota and have followed this issue through the media. Many of the honorable alums from UND are having a hard time defending the use of the logo over the resistance of the Tribrbal rights of the reservations who insist that they dont have permission to use the logo.

UND has perhaps the largest Native American enrollment of all the schools in the Dakota. They have great medical programs that train people to go back to the reservations to be medical professionals. There are other programs to. To those who have had nothing to do with establishment of these programs, there seems to be a reasoning that since the University of North Dakota has established these programs, the UND then has the permission to use the logo. Never mind the dignity of the Native Americans who were here first, and somehow since we were here second, we deserve the right to use this logo. It has nothing to do with comparing the logo with those of European orgins such as Irish or Vikings. What also is not recognized is that those logos have a certain amount of pride in there useage that is felt by those of Eureopean orgins. The Native American do not feel the same about Sioux usage.

There is one other angle to this controversy, and that is the word Sioux is a French word that the early French fur traders gave to the Native Americans and it means "snake". The early French traded and sometimes used Natives for guides etc, but the choice of this word does not connote trust. Lakota is the perferred word of self reference as I understand the issue.

The word Sioux is a term that has been perpetuated through time by people of Eureopean orgins and that is why the Tribe leadership that is looking to fit in the modern world do not approve of its useage.

What I have seen of UND in terms of campus and academic programs, they are first class as an institution. I hope they will agree to change the logo and continue with the great programs that they have for Native Americans. UND does not equal USD by any means IMO, but that is just me.

[UTH]

Re: UND and possible name change

Pro:

You don't realize how you summed up one legal case and all the rhethic and what not that has gone on at UND with this one sentence. Getting permission is the big big key for UND in order to keep the logo. Way too many people that are connected with UND do not get nor do they accept this simple thought. You only have to go to Siouxsports.com to feel the arrogance about keeping the logo and the right to wear these oversized hockey jersey to the Ralph. They sense it is a tradition, but hardly a tradition since day one. The name change occurred in 1930.

I spend a certain amount of time in North Dakota and have followed this issue through the media. Many of the honorable alums from UND are having a hard time defending the use of the logo over the resistance of the Tribrbal rights of the reservations who insist that they dont have permission to use the logo.

UND has perhaps the largest Native American enrollment of all the schools in the Dakota. They have great medical programs that train people to go back to the reservations to be medical professionals. There are other programs to. To those who have had nothing to do with establishment of these programs, there seems to be a reasoning that since the University of North Dakota has established these programs, the UND then has the permission to use the logo. Never mind the dignity of the Native Americans who were here first, and somehow since we were here second, we deserve the right to use this logo. It has nothing to do with comparing the logo with those of European orgins such as Irish or Vikings. What also is not recognized is that those logos have a certain amount of pride in there useage that is felt by those of Eureopean orgins. The Native American do not feel the same about Sioux usage.

There is one other angle to this controversy, and that is the word Sioux is a French word that the early French fur traders gave to the Native Americans and it means "snake". The early French traded and sometimes used Natives for guides etc, but the choice of this word does not connote trust. Lakota is the perferred word of self reference as I understand the issue.

The word Sioux is a term that has been perpetuated through time by people of Eureopean orgins and that is why the Tribe leadership that is looking to fit in the modern world do not approve of its useage.

What I have seen of UND in terms of campus and academic programs, they are first class as an institution. I hope they will agree to change the logo and continue with the great programs that they have for Native Americans. UND does not equal USD by any means IMO, but that is just me.

QFA

[Hammersmith]

Re: UND and possible name change

Pro:

You don't realize how you summed up one legal case and all the rhethic and what not that has gone on at UND with this one sentence. Getting permission is the big big key for UND in order to keep the logo. Way too many people that are connected with UND do not get nor do they accept this simple thought. You only have to go to Siouxsports.com to feel the arrogance about keeping the logo and the right to wear these oversized hockey jersey to the Ralph. They sense it is a tradition, but hardly a tradition since day one. The name change occurred in 1930.

I spend a certain amount of time in North Dakota and have followed this issue through the media. Many of the honorable alums from UND are having a hard time defending the use of the logo over the resistance of the Tribrbal rights of the reservations who insist that they dont have permission to use the logo.

UND has perhaps the largest Native American enrollment of all the schools in the Dakota. They have great medical programs that train people to go back to the reservations to be medical professionals. There are other programs to. To those who have had nothing to do with establishment of these programs, there seems to be a reasoning that since the University of North Dakota has established these programs, the UND then has the permission to use the logo. Never mind the dignity of the Native Americans who were here first, and somehow since we were here second, we deserve the right to use this logo. It has nothing to do with comparing the logo with those of European orgins such as Irish or Vikings. What also is not recognized is that those logos have a certain amount of pride in there useage that is felt by those of Eureopean orgins. The Native American do not feel the same about Sioux usage.

There is one other angle to this controversy, and that is the word Sioux is a French word that the early French fur traders gave to the Native Americans and it means "snake". The early French traded and sometimes used Natives for guides etc, but the choice of this word does not connote trust. Lakota is the perferred word of self reference as I understand the issue.
The word Sioux is a term that has been perpetuated through time by people of Eureopean orgins and that is why the Tribe leadership that is looking to fit in the modern world do not approve of its useage.

What I have seen of UND in terms of campus and academic programs, they are first class as an institution. I hope they will agree to change the logo and continue with the great programs that they have for Native Americans. UND does not equal USD by any means IMO, but that is just me.

The bolded section is something of a myth. The name appears to be originally derived from an Proto-Algonquin word meaning "speak foreign language"(-a-towa). The word slightly changed to na-towa-wa and meant "Northern Iroquoian". In the language of the Ottawa, Odowa, the word was adopted and changed into naadowesiwag to refer to the Sioux people. The word changed to Nadoüessioüak over time and was the one in use when French-Canadian explorers/trappers asked the Ottawa who the "Sioux" were(really the Isanti, Ihanktowan-Ihanktowana, and Teton). The French-Canadians adopted the word as Nadouessioux and later abbreviated it to Sioux. The snake confusion comes from the fact that na-towa-wa was changed in other languages to refer to a small rattlesnake. While it's most likely the development of the two words from Proto-Algonquin was independent of one another, it was a widely-enough held belief for long enough that misunderstanding has become as good as fact to most people.



As for my opinion on the whole mess, I think the boat sailed on the issue over two decades ago when UND and state officials were arrogant enough to think the status quo would always be maintained. Had they started working with the tribes back then(and not just lip service using programs heavily funded with federal dollars), there would've been enough good will built up for the tribes to go to bat for them like the Seminoles did for Florida State. I'm just sick of the Fighting Irish argument; the two situations have almost nothing in common. That name has roots in the Irish brigades of the Civil War. ND's third president was a member of one of those brigades and the school has always had a very large Irish population. So in Notre Dame's case, Irish have been part of the leadership, a large part of the students and alumni, and a large part of the fanbase. How does that compare to UND? Sioux have never been in high positions of authority, have never made up more than a couple percent of the students and alumni, and are even a smaller fraction of the fanbase. The situations aren't even remotely similar. That's just my pet peeve on the issue.

[Nidaros]

Re: UND and possible name change

Thanks Hammersmith. Apparently you are into Native American studies more so than most of us and know a great deal so will not try to refute what you said about the orgins of Fighting Sioux. The somewhat myth is one I have heard on talk shows etc, so that does not make it correct. Your comment on the Fighting Irish is right on, I would have not arguement with that either.

Also the romance with Ralph Englestad and his wealth has not helped the Adminstration at UND either.

[Hammersmith]

Re: UND and possible name change

I just reworded the Wikipedia entry(which uses good sources as its basis), plus I had to take a Native American college course(mainly on the Sioux) to get my ND teaching degree(still got the textbooks).

I'm not sure if the Engelsteds have been more of a curse than a blessing, but it's a close distinction. Besides the obvious(the REA), the large donations have led to disturbing culture among the UND fanbase. Whenever a need is brought up, the response always seems to be: "The Engelstads will pay for it." When Kupchella announced he wanted a $500 million endowment: "The Engelstads will pay for it." When he said a $30 million endowment was needed before a DI move could be attempted: "The Engelstads will pay for it." When UND announced the need for a $20 million indoor practice facility: "The Engelstads will pay for it." Of course, they haven't paid for it. They did pledge $20 million toward the $500 million, including $5 million toward the $30 million, but that was just a drop in the bucket.

The reason I think that attitude is dangerous is because it discourages the small donor. I can imagine them asking: "Why should I donate my $100 when people like the Engelstads will take care of it and my voice won't be listened to anyway?" A few years ago, I thought it was announced that the Fighting Sioux Club(the main scholarship fundraising organization) was bringing in around $2 million a year. Earlier this season, it was announced that they brought in $1.3 million for 2007-08 and that the goal was $1.6 million for 2012-13. Either the number I heard from Sioux supporters a few years ago was grossly wrong or fundraising at UND has taken a big hit. By contrast, NDSU TeamMaker fundraising has gone from $600,000 prior to the DI move to $2.1 million this year. It's achieved this by courting large numbers of small donors. This will continue to pay off in the future as many of those small donors bump up their memberships over time(assuming this crappy season is just an anomaly). I believe UND's fundraising focus of going after the big donor is far more limited for future growth. But that's only this rube's opinion.

[AnimalHouse83]

Re: UND and possible name change

Sorry if I'm getting in on this a little late ...

I've also followed this issue since it involves a regional university, a former conference rival and as a Gopher hockey fan, UND is one of the U of M's biggest rivals.

My thanks also to Hammersmith for the additional insight. I never thought of the impact the Engelstads may have on other donations to UND, and I think it's a valid point.

What may be a centerpiece of the nickname/logo controversy is Engelstad's hockey "palace". Granite floors in the lobby and concourses, wood and leather seats. Engelstad was so against a nickname/logo change that he had the Fighting Sioux logo placed on literally everything in the building. The idea was to make it too expensive for UND to make a change and remove all the logos. He also threatened to pull funding for the arena if the nickname/logo was changed before it was completed, leaving UND with an unfinished building (link). In talking with a friend this weekend, he seemed to recall a condition that the building be torn down if UND ever changed the nickname/logo. Sounds extreme, but I think it's safe to say Engelstad wasn't exactly playing with a full deck of cards, either.

If all of the North Dakota tribes and the people they represent agree to support the nickname and logo, and the two sides can agree to work on promoting a better understanding of the Native culture, then keep it. But if even one tribe is against it, then it should be changed.

All seriousness aside ... as much as I like UTH's alternative suggestion, I'm just afraid someone would declare it hostile and abusive toward individuals with mucus retention issues ...

[JackJD]

Re: UND and possible name change

I had heard of a nasty letter from Engelstad to UND's President...if the one at the end of the Link provided by AnimalHouse83 is authentic, well, judge it for yourself. Not a nice-spirited letter.

[UTH]

Re: UND and possible name change

I had heard of a nasty letter from Engelstad to UND's President...if the one at the end of the Link provided by AnimalHouse83 is authentic, well, judge it for yourself. Not a nice-spirited letter.

It is. I was 'familiar with the community' when it came out. Interesting times...

[Nidaros]

Re: UND and possible name change

Here is another web site that may be of interest to those who are wondering what the opponents to the logo are thinking and why they think in the manner that they do. The website has been up since 1998 or so and it does not appear to have any recent updates. You could easily kill a whole week reading all this stuff. I noticed that was is news is the kidnapping and murder of Dru Sjodin, who was subsequently found dead and the person convicted of the crime is now on a death row at a Federal Prision. It was a sad affair no doubt, but not now news.
Thats another matter. North Dakota seems to have a number of things going on to make it a interesting news day.

Link:
http://www.und-fraud.com/

Click "NATIVE AMERICAN ISSUES.

[SDSF]

Re: UND and possible name change

1) Nick name issues:

a. Usage – I believe that UND does have permission to use the name Fighting Sioux. But, given cultural sensitivities and changing times. I can see how this should be revisited. I believe that this is being handled appropriately and this issue shall be resolve within the next couple of years. One final comment on this topic – way too much negative energy has been expended on both sides of this topic and a lot of people should be embarrassed by their actions. The posturing from both sides (including the NCAA) is unbelievable.

b. Hammersmith – I have noted several times how you hammer UND for offering federally funded Native Americans studies as if they are not commitment to these programs. Simply stated UND is taking advantage of resources that are available to all upper Midwest state universities. Having programs available to Native Americans is the responsibilities of all upper Midwest states universities – not just UND. What are the other schools doing to help the plight of Native Americans? Or are we just comfortable striking the same old punching bag – think about it and get back to me.

2) Large Donor/Limited Donation?

a. I believe that UND is very lucky to have a donor who has given so much to the school. I do disagree with you on the impact of smaller donors. I believe that having an AD and President who support moving toward Division I athletics has a much larger impact. Now that UND has made resent changes toward a more supportive administration. I believe that you will see a change in this area.

b. In addition to changes in administration, the Sioux have had to replace two very popular coaches with its two largest revenue sports programs. In both cases, UND was used as a spring board to new opportunities versus being run out of town . Coach Blais was able to move on to the NHL and now on to an ownership role in USHL. Coach Lennon has recently left for SIU in his next step toward a FBS program. Again, having a recognizable coach has a very large impact on donations. I think both of the coaches that the Sioux have in place have done very well and I look for them to continue the traditions of both programs. In summary, I do not believe that the large donations has the impact that you have stated , but that UND is just starting its transition to Division I athletic with new leadership at all levels. Judgment of these changes will not be seen for several years. I look forward to the transition and seeing all regional school playing again someday – maybe in the playoffs – peace and best of luck to xDSU.