How schools use scholarships

[91jack]

I read about how NDSU doesn't have several men's sports SDSU has. I was wondering why that is. I didn't spend much time looking into it but I noticed some interesting things.
NDSU had 53 men on their track team(USD has 52). SDSU only has 32 men. I guess this is part of why NDSU will have problems winning the Commissioners Cup.
SDSU has 48 women and NDSU only has 32. SDSU must use track to make up for some of the football scholarships. NDSU has more men in track then women. With the extra runners in track and football players NDSU must have to cut several men's sports.
I don't know if some of NDSU's men only get partial scholarships or if they have several walkons.
I could be way off base on this. It really doesn't mean anything but I found it interesting.

[filbert]

Re: How schools use scholarships

I read about how NDSU doesn't have several men's sports SDSU has. I was wondering why that is. I didn't spend much time looking into it but I noticed some interesting things.
NDSU had 53 men on their track team(USD has 52). SDSU only has 32 men. I guess this is part of why NDSU will have problems winning the Commissioners Cup.
SDSU has 48 women and NDSU only has 32. SDSU must use track to make up for some of the football scholarships. NDSU has more men in track then women. With the extra runners in track and football players NDSU must have to cut several men's sports.
I don't know if some of NDSU's men only get partial scholarships or if they have several walkons.
I could be way off base on this. It really doesn't mean anything but I found it interesting.

I think it does mean something--over the long term, across the board, expect SDSU's women's teams to be stronger than men's teams in the non-revenue sports.

It appears to me that SDSU's strategy is to max out women's sports scholarships pretty much across the board to offset the huge numbers of football, and keep most of the non-revenue men's sports just above the minimum allowable scholarships, in order to maintain scholarship-equity component of Title IX compliance. It's also the major reason why we added equestrian--to get another 20 or so women's scholarships to offset the football increase.

[Hammersmith]

Re: How schools use scholarships

I read about how NDSU doesn't have several men's sports SDSU has. I was wondering why that is. I didn't spend much time looking into it but I noticed some interesting things.
NDSU had 53 men on their track team(USD has 52). SDSU only has 32 men. I guess this is part of why NDSU will have problems winning the Commissioners Cup.
SDSU has 48 women and NDSU only has 32. SDSU must use track to make up for some of the football scholarships. NDSU has more men in track then women. With the extra runners in track and football players NDSU must have to cut several men's sports.
I don't know if some of NDSU's men only get partial scholarships or if they have several walkons.
I could be way off base on this. It really doesn't mean anything but I found it interesting.

First of all, the difference isn't quite as big as you make it out. In men's sports, SDSU sponsors tennis and swimming & diving, while NDSU does not. On the women's side, the difference is tennis, swimming & diving, and equestrian. Now at one point, NDSU had all those sports, but they were dropped in 1990-91 for budgetary reasons. It would be nice to bring some or all of them back, but we lack adequate facilities and we have a host of other needs, just like you guys.

As for track & field and cross country, the men's team is only allowed 12.6 combined scholarships while the women are only allowed 18. Whether you have 53 or 32 men on the team doesn't really matter all that much in the first level of Title IX calculations. In most of the non-revenue sports, the student-athletes are getting partial scholarships if they get any at all; I've heard of awards as low as 0.01 scholarship.

This has been talked about before, but NDSU uses a different prong of Title IX compliance than SDSU is forced to(due to SD BoR policy). We use the "Interests and Abilities" prong rather than the "Proportionality" prong that most other programs use. The "Proportionality" prong is more easily defensible in court, and, even quite recently, I felt that NDSU was making a mistake in not using it. Over the last few months, I've been doing some reading and I've come to change my mind. Back in the mid-to-late 90's, NDSU was the subject of a Title IX complaint. NDSU ended up failing the investigation badly and was given a list of 12 or 13 necessary improvements to make. A year or two later, all the improvements had been made, and NDSU passed the follow-up investigation with flying colors. Things must still be pretty good since our NCAA self-study was just accepted with no conditions.

So what changed my mind about which prong to use? For those that don't know, here's a quick primer on the differences between the two. "Proportionality" is quite simple. You start by looking at the ratio between men and women among the full-time, degree seeking, undergraduate students at your university. The number of scholarships, number of coaches, amount of recruiting budgets, amount of practice time, coaches' salaries, and assorted other items should all fall along that ratio, give or take a percentage point or two. If you go by the "Interests and Abilities" prong, things get way more subjective. Again, you start by looking at your student body. Do you have enough potential student-athletes among your standard student body that wish to play a particular sport competitively and will that interest last indefinitely? Additionally, will those interested students have the ability to compete at the school's competition level(DI in our cases)? If the answer to both those questions is yes, then the school is strongly suggested to offer the sport if the school is using the "Interests and Abilities" prong to satisfy Title IX.

Trying to put it more simply, NDSU only has a few(if any) women who would be interested in a rowing program. Even if there were enough to field a squad, that amount probably wouldn't be consistant and the chances that that small group would have the ability to compete is negligible. Thus, NDSU does not need to have a rowing team. Substitute basketball or volleyball in for rowing, and the result is completely different. Using our prong, NDSU probably should sponsor women's tennis, but since most of our student body comes from rural ND & MN high schools that don't have tennis themselves, we can justify not having it for now. I expect that to change eventually.

I like the "Interests and Abilities" prong because it seems to honor the spirit of Title IX more than the "Proportionality" prong does. Take the University of Minnesota, for example. They use proportionality because it's safer. Hence, they have a rowing team because of the 20 women's scholarships it brings to the table(the most of any female sport). Do you really think there are hundreds of young women from MN, WI and IA that were clamoring for rowing at the UofM? I mean, it's such a popular sport here in the upper midwest. Of course not; it's a contrivance. Using the other prong lets you satisfy Title IX without doing stupid stuff just for the sake of numbers. That's why I like it. In fact, it's the reason why NDSU is successful in so many of our women's sports. Because you are held to a higher level of scrutiny, you have to fully honor the spirit of the law and not just play a numbers game. Look at our Summit standings in WBB, VB, SB, Soc, WT&F, WCC, & WG. Two championships, two ties for 2nd, one 4th, two 5ths, and one left(probably a 1st or 2nd). The success of the women's sports comes from the money and resources we put into them and that came from the Title IX investigation in the 90's.

Sorry I got so long winded, but I've been thinking about this off-and-on for the past couple of months. I'm happy where NDSU is for the moment and I wish SDSU had the freedom to choose its own path. I'm not saying what's right for us is what's right for you, but you should've had the right to make that choice for yourself. Our non-revenue men's sports are still struggling at the bottom of the priority tree(baseball had 4 scholies; golf gets none), but things are improving as we close in on our target DI budget($11M this coming year; about $1-3M left to go).

[Jacks#1Fan]

Re: How schools use scholarships

I'm happy where NDSU is for the moment and I wish SDSU had the freedom to choose its own path. I'm not saying what's right for us is what's right for you, but you should've had the right to make that choice for yourself.

An outstanding post, Hammersmith, and an excellent explanation of the differences between the two XDSUs in regards to Title IX. Thanks to our Board of Regents, we have no choice on proportionality...in the interest of fair competition between schools, it is too bad that Title IX doesn't have a common interpretation requirement. But it is, what it is (apologies to Yogi Berra). Thanks for enlightening our fans on this subject.

I like our broad-based athletic program, but when it comes to the financial requirements, it definitely affects our competitive abilities against schools with larger budgets (i.e., NDSU vs. SDSU) and fewer sports (i.e., NDSU vs. SDSU). Sooooo...like Avis, we just have to try harder...which hasn't worked out too bad.

[91jack]

Re: How schools use scholarships

Hammersmith- I thought about asking for your opinion on the topic. You normally have a good understanding of things like this. You come back and explain it so that even I can understand it.
Does that mean that the Women's teams are at a max for scholarships? The Men's teams (except for football and basketball) only get partial in about every other sport.
I can understand no rowing but what about Ice Hockey, bowling or gymnastics? I know gymnastics would be a pain in the butt so that might be taking it too far. I know hockey is hugh up in North Dakota. I was at Grand Forks AFB when they had the State Hockey Tourney. 4 of the 5 T.V.'s in the station were on the same game. That was boys and not girls so that could make a big difference.
I'm just throwing some other sports out there that people in ND, SD and Minn play. They might not do it as a school sport but most kids try these sports around here.
I know that SDSU doesn't even have a real track on campus. The one they have was cracking(the last time I saw it). NDSU's men just must love track to have that people walkon for little or no money. I guess I don't even know how much most of the SDSU tracksters get. I would think if SDSU pays for more of their schooling, they could get the "cream of the crop".
I think both NDSU's and SDSU's track teams will do well this weekend. Both schools must be doing something right. They might do well enough that both teams move up in the CC standings.

[Hammersmith]

Re: How schools use scholarships

Hammersmith- I thought about asking for your opinion on the topic. You normally have a good understanding of things like this. You come back and explain it so that even I can understand it.
Does that mean that the Women's teams are at a max for scholarships? The Men's teams (except for football and basketball) only get partial in about every other sport.
I can understand no rowing but what about Ice Hockey, bowling or gymnastics? I know gymnastics would be a pain in the butt so that might be taking it too far. I know hockey is hugh up in North Dakota. I was at Grand Forks AFB when they had the State Hockey Tourney. 4 of the 5 T.V.'s in the station were on the same game. That was boys and not girls so that could make a big difference.
I'm just throwing some other sports out there that people in ND, SD and Minn play. They might not do it as a school sport but most kids try these sports around here.
I know that SDSU doesn't even have a real track on campus. The one they have was cracking(the last time I saw it). NDSU's men just must love track to have that people walkon for little or no money. I guess I don't even know how much most of the SDSU tracksters get. I would think if SDSU pays for more of their schooling, they could get the "cream of the crop".
I think both NDSU's and SDSU's track teams will do well this weekend. Both schools must be doing something right. They might do well enough that both teams move up in the CC standings.

First, hockey. Hockey is huge in parts of ND; the NE part of the state to be specific. Since it is an expensive sport to run, very few rural schools have teams and only the larger schools in the Red River Valley take it really seriously. Grand Forks is definitely the epicenter of hockey in ND. NDSU came very, very close to adding hockey in the late 90's. Our AD at the time was behind it 100%, and a hockey facility made it onto a city ballot twice(connected to the Fargodome in '97 or '99, and a downtown location around '03 or '04). Both were defeated soundly. Without a facility to play in, NDSU eventually decided a DI move was a better investment. I suspect the next decision will be hockey or a very strong mid-major BB program. I'm sure we'll go with BB. Then, it will probably be hockey or FBS football. That choice is more murky, but I'm betting it will be FB(we're talking 10-15 years out, here). Hockey is just too damn expensive to start from scratch, especially when you've got one top-5 program 70 miles away and another about 200 miles away(or whatever MSP is).

As for whether the women's teams are at max scholarships, I'm not quite sure what you mean. If you're asking about SDSU, I don't have any information on that. As for NDSU, most of our women's sports are at, or near, the max except for women's golf. In one or two cases, we're not at full scholarship only becase of attrition and graduation(basketball and soccer, I think). Besides golf, I think T&F/CC is at around 75% of the max, at least, and the other sports are within 2-4 scholies of the max in their particular sport. This isn't something that most schools give specifics in, so some of it is guesswork.

Also guesswork is in T&F. I think NDSU targets a small number of HS recruits for scholarships(1/4-3/4 scholie), but most are unpaid. Also, some of the runners are from other sports, so they may be on a full ride in football or basketball or something else. They make up only a small part of the squad, but they're there.

When it comes to adding sports, you have to look at three things: 1. Do you have the facilities? 2. Do you have a conference/how much will travel cost? 3. Do you have interested athletes available to fill out your team? At NDSU, we have no potential sports that can say yes to all three questions. The sports that the Summit League sponsors, we don't have the facilities for. The sports that we have the facilities for(or close to it), we don't have enough teams close by to make it cost-effective. We might make something work if it wasn't for the desperate need we have for facility improvements for sports we already sponsor. We've got almost $50M in immediate projects that need to be done and another $35-50M in wants. Tennis, S&D, hockey, etc. have to come after that.

[91jack]

Re: How schools use scholarships

I guess I didn't know that NDSU didn't even have a place to play hockey. I knew they didn't have a DI team but maybe a club team or something like that. I guess 70 miles away is a whole different world. It isn't like USD where you can play basketball in a football/track facility.
I know what you mean by improving/adding facilities. SDSU is going with baseball, softball and equestrian. You still have those and then you can add football. I wonder what SDSU's football field will look like about 10 years down the road.

[Hammersmith]

Re: How schools use scholarships

I guess I didn't know that NDSU didn't even have a place to play hockey. I knew they didn't have a DI team but maybe a club team or something like that. I guess 70 miles away is a whole different world. It isn't like USD where you can play basketball in a football/track facility.
I know what you mean by improving/adding facilities. SDSU is going with baseball, softball and equestrian. You still have those and then you can add football. I wonder what SDSU's football field will look like about 10 years down the road.

One last clarification on hockey. I should have said we didn't have any adequate facilities. NDSU has had a club team for many years, but the only place to play was a badly outdated city-owned facility near campus. An NDSU hockey team would've had to compete for space with a minor league team(FM Jets), plus all the high school teams for practice time in a horrible facility. Recently, a private group has started construction on a new 5000 seat hockey arena that will house Fargo's new minor league team(Fargo Force), as well as provide some breathing room for youth hockey. Four more sheets will be added in a year to further help the practice time crunch. This would be the perfect home for NDSU hockey, except it's about eight miles from campus. I'm sure that's not a deal breaker, but the money needed to start and run the team will keep hockey off the table for now. NDSU just can't afford another $2-$4 million per year on top of everything else.

As for SDSU's success, I have to agree completely. You guys are doing far better than I expected, and I expected you to do fairly well. It's a real testament to the great leadership you've had over the last decade. Other than the handling of media contracts, with which I respectfully disagree with Dr. Olein, I can't think of anything you guys have done wrong. Since my dream is for both of our schools to join an FBS Missouri Valley Conference, I hope both our schools keep up the good work.

[Jacks#1Fan]

Re: How schools use scholarships

Hammersmith: That last dream may look a little more possible if the Gateway meeting coming up produces the name change being proposed. Let's all stay tuned in to that story.