NCC schools contemplate conference's future

[filbert]

Grand Forks Herald article:

Once UND leaves after the 2007-08 school year, it will leave the NCC with the bare NCAA minimum of six teams, which prompted University of South Dakota to form a committee to study the possible move to Division I. Augustana joined the mix by also announcing it was expanding a strategic planning committee. And the University of Nebraska-Omaha announced July 1 it will conduct a comprehensive study, part of which will encompass classification and conference options.

Only the Minnesota schools - St. Cloud State, Minnesota State University, Mankato and Minnesota Duluth - have indicated they are standing pat.

Given the University of South Dakota's similarity to UND - it too must compete for students and athletes against an in-state Division I rival - several athletic administrators in the conference expect the Coyotes to follow in UND's footsteps. USD athletic director Joel Nielsen said members of the committee studying the issue will be named in the next week or two and likely will make a decision by the end of the year.

"For years here, South Dakota State, USD, and Augie were all in the NCC together and played together," Gross said. "We're thought of in a lot of ways as similar, even though we're private. If USD goes and with SDSU already at Division I, what does that mean for Augustana?"

Gross believes the ultimate decision will depend upon the overall vision Augustana decides upon. The committee's previous recommendation was to stay in Division II.

Interesting article. I think the most surprising developing stories are 1) how the Minnesota schools are digging in their heels to stay in D-II, while 2) Augustana is holding out D-I as a serious option. The next couple of years will be very interesting for the Upper Midwest collegiate sports scene.

[JackTwice]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

I still have to say that I am very against Augie and USD moving up to D-I for several reasons. But first and foremost is the fact that I don't miss the venom with the rivalry. It just wasn't fun anymore.

[jackmd]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

More from the Herald today. A lot of quotes from SDSU personnel:

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandf...s/14997771.htm

Digging into Division I
By Bob Bergland
Herald Staff Writer

Coaches involved in trying to sign athletes often refer to recruiting as a "fight" or "war" or "battle," sometimes even using more graphic imagery.

"Recruiting is a cutthroat business," said Rob Peterson, an assistant athletic director at South Dakota State.

If indeed recruiting is war, then the UND athletic program's move to NCAA Division I just added a valuable weapon to its arsenal. Quite simply, many athletes like to either compete at the highest level or have the stature of being a Division I athlete or both, according to coaches, athletic administrators and athletes.

"There's a certain aura to being at a Division I institution," SDSU basketball player Megan Vogel said. "I know that there are players on our team who wanted to go Division I, and that's one of the reasons they came here."

Her athletic director, Fred Oien, agrees.

"We're getting kids we couldn't even talk to when we were Division II," Oien said. "These kids grew up watching ESPN. They want to be known as a Division I athlete."

SDSU and North Dakota State both have been able to use the Division I weapon against UND for recruiting. They have been Division I since the 2004-05 school year.

Kyle Steffes, a running back at NDSU, said he feels Division I status has helped the Bison win the recruiting battles the past two years.

"It seems that North Dakota kids are leaning more toward NDSU," Steffes said. "I feel like we're pulling in the top kids because there are more opportunities in Division I more fans, more scholarship opportunities, more of that big-time atmosphere."

Evening the playing field

Those are the same advantages outlined by UND football coach Dale Lennon, who admitted that recruiting area blue-chip athletes to come to UND has become more difficult, especially this last year. And, while UND football traditionally has been able to attract good South Dakota athletes, Lennon was not able to land a single South Dakota scholarship athlete in his last class.

He's also struggled more in the Twin Cities, and thinks the move to Division I will help the team's fortunes in all three states.

"The I-AAs are coming in and getting who we want," Lennon said. "There are three reasons recruits give for choosing a college. The first thing out of mouths is, 'I want to play at the highest level.' The second big thing is the scholarship, and next they mention the level of competition."

[1stRowFANatic]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

Those are the same advantages outlined by UND football coach Dale Lennon, who admitted that recruiting area blue-chip athletes to come to UND has become more difficult, especially this last year. And, while UND football traditionally has been able to attract good South Dakota athletes, Lennon was not able to land a single South Dakota scholarship athlete in his last class.

He's also struggled more in the Twin Cities, and thinks the move to Division I will help the team's fortunes in all three states.

"The I-AAs are coming in and getting who we want," Lennon said. "There are three reasons recruits give for choosing a college. The first thing out of mouths is, 'I want to play at the highest level.' The second big thing is the scholarship, and next they mention the level of competition."

While SDSU has not gotten all of the players, I think Lennon is in a position to know that the move by NDSU & SDSU made a big impact. USD probably got some of the players, but I don't see how USD meets the three reasons he cited.

[MilwaukeeJacksAlum]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

USD would seem to be the exact opposite of UND when it comes to recruiting success. USD's football coaches should be sending thank you notes to SDSU after every signing day. In the days of the powerhouse NCC, USD would get the occasional high profile SD player (like the Liebers), but most often were left trying to sift through the players unwanted by SDSU, UND and NDSU. Prior to SDSU and NDSU moving up, USD was looking alot to Iowa for their recruits and their rosters supported it. They just knew they were outgunned when dealing with the SD recruits. Now, with SDSU looking for a higher level of recruit, USD has benefitted. Until UND moved up, your options were either 1) walk on at SDSU 2) go to school at UND where the winters are even worse than in SD or 3) play for USD and get a partial ride - not necessarily in that order. Now, with UND moving up, USD will have basically a free reign on D2 level athletes for football. It always kills me when USD points to their recent success as a "told you so" kind of weapon for how good it could be if we had stayed in D2. Ignoring the elephant in the room that they would not have had access to most of those athletes had ND and SD still been primarily D2 states.

[1stRowFANatic]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

MJA,
Do you think that USD will suffer because UND's move will add scholarship opportunities that will improve their depth by taking some of the upper D-2 players as depth players, with the hope they may develop? I don't think it would be a lot of players, but could you get the top tier ones. When the three schools get to the full scholarship levels, there will be 81 more total FB scholarships in the 2 states than when they were D-2, if I did my math correctly.

[MilwaukeeJacksAlum]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

There probably won't be a large increase in actual athletes getting scholarships. In the days of 4 NCC schools in the area, they were dividing somewhere close to 90%, if not more, of their available scholarships. I know, aside from Zach Carter (who should have been at Nebraska had they not jerked him around), myself and the rest of my classmates were getting partial scholarships. Someone else could provide the numbers now, but most of the 1AA scholarships have to used as full rides. Now, we're getting into the math area here, so it gets a little hazy for me, but I would venture a guess that the actual number of athletes receiving money would be approximately the same. I just think that those athletes who are on the fence of receiving a ride at 1AA or being asked to walk on, will now fall to USD if they are asked to walk on.

One kid in particular that comes to mind is that player from DeSmet a couple years ago. He was getting a ton of interest leading DeSmet's team to one of the best seasons in SD history. When all of the hype played out, he ended up taking a partial scholarship to USD because NDSU and SDSU had asked him to walk on. That kid would have never even considered USD had SDSU not been D1.

[Coyote_Fan]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

I still have to say that I am very against Augie and USD moving up to D-I for several reasons.  But first and foremost is the fact that I don't miss the venom with the rivalry.  It just wasn't fun anymore.

I guess it's more fun to sit in an arena with 2,000 fans against a team classified as D1 but one that no one is familiar with or really care much about. Nah those old rivalries just don't compare.

[Coyote_Fan]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

Just because SDSU has "D1" athletes and USD has "D2" athletes doesn't mean that those division 1 athletes are the better athletes. For skilled position players USD was most likely more talented than SDSU was. Many Jacks fan notice the speed of D1AA being alot faster, but maybe that is because SDSU just had a slow team. If you watched USD play you would think their skilled players were every bit as fast as the athletes from UC Davis, Poly etc. The difference between D2 and D1AA football is not that great. The top 10 teams of D2 are probably better than at least half the D1AA schools. USD was either in the top 10 or on the cusp of it. Athletes are athletes. Classifying them by divison means nothing other than a title. I doubt SDSU had a runningback or quarterback that were as good as what USD had. In that instance the D2 athlete was the better athlete. USD and SDSU do recruit a different player, problem is for Jacks fans is that the better recruits are now going to the U.

[NightHawk78]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

Coyote_Fan, I'm going to have to wave the bulls*** flag this time. Here's why:

1) A lot of SDSU fans didn't care any more about the USD rivalry once many of the USD students bought and wore the "Beat State, Not......." shirts. It was an act of tackiness that was far worse than the rabbits and carrots hitting the court.

2) No one would come to a D-2 SDSU-USD game if all the best players in the region were now going to new D-1 schools like NDSU and UND.

3) Attendance at the Dakota Dump hasn't been that special as of late, either. And you still have doubleheaders.

4) If you really think that USD could beat half of the D-1AA schools, why isn't UNI, SDSU, or NDSU on your fall schedule? You could always try to play Southern Utah or UNC, but those games against Peru State and UofM-Crookston are too important to get off the schedule.

5) D-1AA teams usually have more depth since they can offer more schollies. SDSU's second and thrid-string RBs would likely leave your subs in the dust.

6) A good number of our football upperclassmen were recruited as D-2 players. They've been doing a pretty goood as we've been transitioning to D-1AA, IMHO.

Go Jacks!

[Rabbitlivinginverm]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

Just because SDSU has "D1" athletes and USD has "D2" athletes doesn't mean that those division 1 athletes are the better athletes.  For skilled position players USD was most likely more talented than SDSU was.  Many Jacks fan notice the speed of D1AA being alot faster, but maybe that is because SDSU just had a slow team.  If you watched USD play you would think their skilled players were every bit as fast as the athletes from UC Davis, Poly etc.  The difference between D2 and D1AA football is not that great.  The top 10 teams of D2 are probably better than at least half the D1AA schools.  USD was either in the top 10 or on the cusp of it.  Athletes are athletes.  Classifying them by divison means nothing other than a title.  I doubt SDSU had a runningback or quarterback that were as good as what USD had.  In that instance the D2 athlete was the better athlete.  USD and SDSU do recruit a different player, problem is for Jacks fans is that the better recruits are now going to the U.  

I'll give you Logan and Wes B. as faster athletes at their respective positions than what we had last year.  But as far as better athletes, I'm not so sure.  We have a stable of horses at running back.  Matt Dougherty ranked the best running back tandems in DIAA, Watson and Koenig weren't mentioned in the top 5.  I thought this was suspect, so I sent Matt an email putting Watson and Koenig up against the top ranked tandem.  He wouldn't say they were the top ranked, but did admit they should have been in the top 5.  We have no worries at RB and I don't think anyone around SDSU's camp would trade either one for Logan.

RB's:
Watson
Koenig
Hohn
Paula
Simet

No problems there.  

Wes B. was an exceptional QB last year.  No doubt he had one of the best years in D2 last season.  It's apparent you don't know much about Andy Kardoes.  This kid is the definition of an athlete.  He struggled last year early and then got hurt.  But this kid is a freak of an athlete.  Ryan Berry and Reed Burkhardt stepped in and did an admirable job--especially Berry.  Ryan Crawford will fight for playing time this year was ranked as one of the best incoming freshman DIAA QB's last year.

Kardoes
Berry
Burkhardt
Crawford

No problems there.  

Name a few recruits that SDSU has recently lost to USD.  No doubt there are a few but I can't think of their names off the top of my head.

[NorCalJack]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

If you watched USD play you would think their skilled players were every bit as fast as the athletes from UC Davis, Poly etc.

I'm going to take a guess here, but I'm thinking you have never seen UC Davis or Cal Poly play before. With that being the case, how can you honestly say that USD athletes are as fast as UC Davis or Cal Poly, when you have never seen a D-1AA game.

I on the other hand have seen UC Davis and Cal Poly play (being I live in California). I have also seen USD play when I was attending SDSU, and trust me, USD is not as fast as these two teams. Sorry :'(

USD and SDSU do recruit a different player, problem is for Jacks fans is that the better recruits are now going to the U.

I have never seen your QB or RB play so I can't argue weather they are better or not. The point is USD obtained these recruits while SDSU was still D-2. Today thought, SDSU is D-1AA and we will win every recuiting battle with USD, as long as USD stays D-2. If you don't believe me, ask the UND coaches how they have been fairing since NDSU moved to D-1AA. ;D ;D

Go State!!! 8-) 8-) 8-)

[Coyote_Fan]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

People that saw USD play 3 years ago and have seen them play last year know that they are night and day as far as their entire team. 3 years ago during the last year USD played SDSU the Coyotes were not even able to compete with the better teams in the NCC. Sure SDSU and NDSU have since left the conference but UND and UNO didn't suddenly both become bad football programs because of it. USD wasn't even in the same class as either team and wasn't as good as SDSU either, but SDSU was also not as good as UNO or UND either, at best on an even level with the. Look at the difference that 2 years made. USD was not only able to compete with those same teams that were beating SDSU just 3 years ago but they were able to run them right off the field. USD took a couple of losses but against the good teams they not only won but did so in impressive if not dominant fassion.

One thing that can't be ignored no mattter what you say about recruiting is that the Coyote Football program has taken major strides forward while SDSU has really done nothing to improve. They are no better or no worse. They have the same coach and basically the same talent level they had 3 years ago. I will give credit to SDSU as they have smoked the Yotes for the most part of the last 15 years, but have been mediocre against the rest of the NCC. The USD football program was embarrassing and I am the first to admit it. Don't forget though that for much of the time prior to that the USD football program was reaching lofty heights, nearly winning a national title and only losing to a great NDSU team in 1986.

I have nothing against Stig but if the Yotes move up to D1AA and end up renewing the rivalry with SDSU in about 3 or 4 years I hope that Stig is still your coach. I hope so because he is a solid but not spectacular coach. He will have the Jacks at or around .500 like they have been for the most part of 40 years. Meierkort is a darn good head coach that gives the program tremendous upside. He has won already using the same players that John Austin failed miserably with. That either means that he is a very good coach or Austin was a very bad coach or somewhere in between. He hasn't even had his own recruits have much of a chance to contribute yet. His strength when he came on board was recruiting.

As far as team speed, just ask most people in the know and they will tell you that UNO has a very fast defense. The Yotes made one of the fastest D2 defenses look slow. Logan ran right around them for long gains consistantly. The receivers were getting open all day long. The game was over at halftime. The point I am making is that you can't judge USD on when you saw them 3 years ago because the team is not even close to where it was back then. UNO has probably never been so overwelmed in a game for a very long time. Teams just don't do that to the Red Mavs and for that matter no team has ripped apart UND's defense like USD did in November. It's my opinion that the main reason is simply coaching, something that has been lacking for years. USD finally went outside the program for a coach and BINGO some success. Sometimes the buddy system by hiring from within doesn't work. It the program isn't doing squat hiring from within is quite illogical. The biggest reason for the change in that is because of Joel Nielson. He had the sensability to look at the big picture and go a different direction than the status quo that produced very little success on a consistant basis.

As much as SDSU people want to dismiss USD as a legit threat to SDSU in the major sports is as much as they really don't know what is going on within USD right now. The president Abbott is a USD guy through and through and has and is going to have a vision for USD athletics. Joel Nielson is a very good AD for the Coyotes and has already turned around alot of the mess that was left by Higgins and those before him. The basketball team isn't tearing it up but have been getting more consistant, with regional appearances in 3 straight years which hasn't happened for awhile and that included the very good teams they had in the early to mid 90's. The recruiting has been good for both basketball and football and don't think that SDSU really has that much to do with it, whether D1, D2 or whatever.

Don't think that if USD moves up that they will not be able to compete with SDSU because it is not true. USD is much better in football and remains solid in basketball which is something SDSU cannot claim. Being D1 does not majically turn a program around that hasn't made the internal changes to make it so. If USD moves up there are other sports that they will simply not be able to be very good at and many of those sports if they were to complete with SDSU would get their butts handed to them. I think the track and field team would probably outdo the Jacks but many of the womens sports such as volleyball and softball are not very good. Those types of sports may suffer if USD moves up. The thing about those types of sports is that not many people really care. They are usually nothing more than morning coffee discussion. People have to prioritize and will choose basketball and football over the lesser attended sports, which I guess is rather obvious.

[NorCalJack]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

Coyote-Fan,

I appreciate your sincerity in keeping the conversation civil. I do agree to some extent that USD and SDSU would still have a competative game if they were to play each other in football. However, as time goes by, SDSU will continue to recruit D1-AA athletes and increase the number of scholarship athletes. When SDSU declared the move to D-1, it did not mean that the entire roster was instantly D1-AA talent. They still had a full roster of D-2 kids that were going to play D1-AA. Because State can offer full ride scholarships and the opprotunity to play at the D1-AA level, a higher qualtity athlete is being incorporated into the program. Most of these kids red-shirted their freshman year and this year will be Sophmores. So as you can see, it takes a while for this new talent to filter into the program.

I'm not bashing D-2 athletes either, numerous D-2 athletes could be successful at D-1AA. I'm sure that people like Jim Langer, Adam Timmermann, Heien and others would be just as sucessful playing D1-AA as they were playing D-2. I'm sure that USD has several players that would start for SDSU. It is that most of the time when a recruit if offered a full scholarship for a D1-AA program or a partial scholarship for a D-2 program, the recruit would pick the D1-AA offer almost every time. That just gives D1-AA programs an edge over D-2 programs. I'm sure that if you looked at how many games D-2 programs beat D-1AA programs last year, that not many D-2 programs beat D1-AA programs. I'm not talking about non-scholarship D1-AA either.

Go State!!! 8-) 8-) 8-)

[MilwaukeeJacksAlum]

Re: NCC schools contemplate conference's future

I'm 31 and would still look fast on the field if I was playing against Upper Iowa every game.

That being said, your response has many good points. Here is some hard core facts, though, and what my post originally addressed. Recruiting. No matter what you say about the steps the programs have taken and in what direction, and without any mention of team speed, here is what has happened in the last 5-10 years.

When the NCC was in full swing and recruits from SD were weeding out programs to play for, USD was always a distant 4th/5th in a list of potential programs. USD knew this and focused their recruiting efforts elsewhere for the most part. Their roster was full of kids from Iowa and Nebraska. Pull out a couple programs from the 90s if you don't believe me. Unless you had a predisposed pull towards USD (beit family history, proximity, etc.) the list usually looked like this 1)NDSU 2)UND/SDSU 4)USD/Augie.

Until the late 90s, NDSU was winning the recruiting battle. When UND started having some big time success, they probably edged closer to NDSU putting SDSU in a solid 3rd place. Now, I'm not including UNO because they didn't usually recruit the same areas as the 5 ND/SD schools. ND studs either went to UND or NDSU. If they didn't go to one of those schools, they were going D1. The battle, then was generally over who you could get from SD and MN. If a stud recruit from SD was looking at his options, it was generally 1a) go to ND and play for one of the top schools in the NCC or 1b) stay at home and play for SDSU and try to make SDSU into one of the top schools. USD was generally not in the consideration (again, unless you had some predisposed loyalty, etc.) SDSU was routinely getting the top SD recruits. Josh Ranek, Zach Carter, etc. USD and Augie would routinely get the recruits not offered a scholarship to SDSU. That's not "my team's better than yours", that's just the way it was.

Fast forward to a couple years ago and SDSU is now only recruiting the top athletes and not as many projects. Nothing wrong with the project players. D2 is full of project players. I would have been a project player (too skinny). Now, those project players not quite good enough to offer a full ride to are being snatched up by USD (see my example of the kid from DeSmet a couple seasons ago). There is no way you can argue that USD has not benefitted from SDSU and NDSU moving up a division. USD has had some good teams in the last couple years despite their cake-walk schedule and who they manage to lose to when they "must win" to get into the playoffs. Saying that success has nothing to do with NDSU and SDSU moving up is merely placing your head squarely in the sand while making your argument.