Best for SDSU--USD? Augie? Both? Neither?

[Charger13]

I know some posters are pro-USD moving up and some aren't. I was wondering what do you guys think would be best for SDSD: USD moving up, Augie moving up or both schools taking the plunge. Personally I can see some advantages with USD moving up and renewing the rivalry, but I also think that Augie moving up could get us more coverage in Sioux Falls. Ofcourse currently it is nice being the only DI school in the state. So do you guys think that having more DI schools in South Dakota would increase interest in SDSU athletics or decrease it. And if another school moves up, who would you rather see USD or Augie.

*Admin-
I split this off onto its own thread

[Haldersham]

Re: Best for SDSU--USD? Augie? Both? Neither?

Personally I would not mind if both USD and Augie decide on  moving up to the East Side(D1). People in SD seem to love those intra state rivalries. With Cententary being D1 and in the Mid Continent Conference with less students than Augie, I could see Augie using them as a model to make the move. If done with careful finanical planning, Augie could make the move. If the talk of a new arena in Sioux Falls starts to shape up, Augie could see itself going down the path of schools like DePaul and Marquette. Both had football once upon a time, but now basketball is the cash cow.

USD is going to have to do their calculations too, in order to make D1 work.

I dont know what an Augie move to D1 would do to the market that SDSU is trying to capture in Sioux Falls. Basketball with a competitive teams would still draw the same interest that was drawn during D2 days and maybe more.  

I think the big advantage SDSU has if both move to D1, is that we are three to five years ahead of them in developing programs. Both can watch SDSU and try to copy, but if the financial support is not there to make the duplicate, then both programs will have financial problems. I think SDSU is ahead of both in number of alums and giving.

I did not mingle too much in the backyard at the Beef Bowl this year as there seemed to be big lines everywhere whether it was  for the beef sandwich or for a dish of SDSU ice cream. The point is that this year there seemed to be more interested and avid Jack fans wanting to see a good football game than I have noticed in prior years during the transition to D1. You hope this growing interest will carry over to the BB season and we start getting 3000 plus crowds again.

If both programs decide that D2 is a better fit for now, I would not see that as a bad outcome either.

[akbison]

Re: Best for SDSU--USD? Augie? Both? Neither?

I used to be all for USD moving up with UND. It just seems to make sense that the four Dakota schools stick together. They could be the backbone of any conference. However, things have changed a bit. Much like how the departure of Chicago State and Valpo opened up the Mid-con, the news of WKU going DIA has got to be a backbreaker to both USD and UND. The most logical solution for the Gateway is to add NDSU and SDSU to make up 9 teams. This leaves both USD and UND out in the cold for the forseeable future and not in a conference with the SU's. If both U schools do go DI I can see them getting into the Mid-con, especially with Douple saying something to the effect that they are still looking at expansion. However they will be stuck with the Great West for quite some time. In 5 years the landscape of the DI western conferences could be quite a bit different. Once SUU gets its scholly issues fixed, you are likely to see them in the Big Sky, as they fit the infamous "footprint" La-tech won't be in the WAC much longer as travel is killing them. UCD has their eye on that spot as does Sac State.

The whole point of this conjecture is that without NDSU and SDSU in the Great-West the thought of UND and especially USD moving up doesn't make much sense. Personally, I would love to see UND move up and get stranded without a conference for ten years. However, I have a little bit of a soft spot for USD and would rather see them stay in DII and dominate the next few years as the product gets more and more watered down.

Damn, If we hit the jackpot and get into the Gateway, what a success the whole move will have been. Thanks for having the guts to move up with us you bunnys!

[JACKGUYII]

Re: Best for SDSU--USD? Augie? Both? Neither?

I honestly think Augie can make a better case for going DI than USD especially if they go the non-scholarship route for football and join the Pioneer Conference with Drake. Augie has always had competitive Mens and Womens Basketball, Volleyball and Wrestling. They have tremendous corporate sponsorship potential and a big market to sell their product. I agree Augie could be a Valpo,Marquette or Creighton. Basketball is king in Sioux Falls and if they do build a new 15,000 seat arena in Sioux Falls as is being discussed no doubt a DI Augie would be a tenant. I don't think this would hurt SDSU a bit, but would rather bring back a close rival.

I know USD will announce they are moving up, but don't think its the right move and yet I'm not sure there is a good alternative for them. Vermillion is an isolated town in the corner of the state and I think USD will struggle to generate the corporate dollars and attendence to make this work.

[SUPERBUNNY]

Re: Best for SDSU--USD? Augie? Both? Neither?

USD and Augie moving up would no doubt hurt SDSU in athletics due to the increased competition in recruiting. However, there is a chance it could help in attendance due to more rivalry games. Those schools wouldn't necessarily have to be in the same conference as SDSU.

Both schools would probably get immediate admission into the Great West, especially if SDSU and NDSU move to the Gateway. I don't see where they would fit in with a conference for the rest of their athletics.

My bias withstanding, the fact of the matter is USD is just NOT a real attractive option for conference membership. I highly doubt they would get the call to go to the Mid-Con. Where else could they go? I've said it before, USD is between a rock and a hard place on this deal! They should stay D-II but I think egos will get in the way and they will make the jump (off the cliff).

Augie may be another story! They could drop football or go the no scholarship route and upgrade in other areas and become a pretty attractive candidate for a couple of conferences. They've got a long way to go but with the population in Sioux Falls it is a possibility. There's a lot of competition in Sioux Falls for the sports dollars but I think Augie would survive that but one or two of the pro teams would probably fold! Augie should make the jump but my gut says they won't. They may even go back to D-3!

Even if they both move up, I like the position SDSU is in because we are so far ahead in virtually every area (budget, facilities, alumni, staff, etc.). SDSU will be more dominant over both of them than we were at the D-II level!

Touch decisions to be made for both schools and I'm not sure the leadership is there to withstand the move if it is made which could really turn things downhill in a hurry!

SUPERBUNNY

[Dakota]

Re: Best for SDSU--USD? Augie? Both? Neither?

I like to see both schools stay DII.

Augie may have a better chance if they drop football and just focus on BB and other sports. Plus privite may have better chance in pulling it off. USD I feel would be better served in the long run at DII and focus on education.

SDSU is doing fine by themselves and it is only getting better.


What better spring then having
--the SDSU women and men in the big dance
--the USD or Northern BB in DII elite eight
--one or all USF,DWU,BHSU,SD Tech etc.... making the NAIA tourny

[NightHawk78]

Re: Best for SDSU--USD? Augie? Both? Neither?

I think that there are significant advantages and disadvantages for SDSU if USD and Augie move up to D-1. I've mentioned several of these points before on posts, but I'm going to bring the Sioux Falls minor league scene into the discussion. IMHO, the success of the Skyforce, Stampede, Storm, and Canaries indicates that the Sioux Falls market wants to support a higher level of athletic competition. I think that sports fans have wanted to see more than small college (D-2, NAIA) athletics and the introduction of the minor-league teams reached an untapped market that SDSU (and likely USD and Augie) have sought to reach.

This untapped demand was masked (in part) by the intense rivalry that had developed between SDSU and USD. Once that rivalry ended, the uncertainty of conference affliation suppressed attendance at SDSU, particularly in men's basketball. The fans have come out in greater numbers to support Jackrabbit football because of the higher level of talent and competition. They will do the same for men's basketball as Nagy develops a D-1 program. A.J. has done a superb job during the transition and SDSU has attendance numbers for women's basketball t(despite the end of doubleheaders) hat would make many programs green with envy.

USD and Augie in D-1 would challenge SDSU by creating additional competition for media coverage, sponsorship dollars, and recruits. However, these challenges will not be as steep to SDSU as one might think. Here's why:

1) Media coverage, overall, would have to be improved with the presence of three D-1 teams in the Sioux Falls market; they currently lump all three with USF, the minor-league teams, the SF high schools, and Beresford :.
2) Sponsorship dollars are competitive, but USD and Augie are already competing against us for them. Businesses recognize the fact that SDSU is the state's largest university and has a true statewide presence. In addition, the Sioux Falls pie is growing bigger as compared to other areas that are thinking of going D-1 (Grand Forks, anyone?).
3) Recruiting will always be competitive, regardless of what USD and Augie do. Other schools in the region will still compete for our desired recruits. In addition, MN has only one D-1 school and is likely to stay that way; SD will give MN athletes more D-1 opportunities. Finally, the small population of South Dakota already makes regional (and limited national) recruiting a necessity.

Verdict: I think that having Augie (more likely to succeed) and USD (more likely to jump) in D-1 increases the D-1 presence in SD and renews valuable rivalries. The increased attention to D-1 in SD (as opposed to D-2, NAIA, minor league, Gophers, Huskers, etc.) will be a good thing for SDSU, even if we have to share the limelight on occasion.

Point to Ponder: IF USD and Augie both make the jump to D-1, will USF be tempted to consider joining the fray in order to keep up?

[Coyote_Fan]

Re: Best for SDSU--USD? Augie? Both? Neither?

Nighthawk,

Nice fair unbiased post. I can't think of anything I definately disagree with but I do have to wonder whether or not the average fan of the Sioux Falls area is going to suddenly start caring for Augustana just because they become D1. I think what it does is energize the fan base in the entire state that already has ties to USD, SDSU and Augie. When the NCC was still intact at 10 schools a few years ago I think the average fan that doesn't really have a routing interest might not be aware of the high level of competition that existed in the NCC. The D1 label might give some uninformed fans the motivation to go check out the competition but I doubt it would amount to enough fans to care all that much.

What really makes me wonder is this. Whether or not an Augie, SDSU, USD, Northern, Dakota State, Black Hills State fan why is it that so many people just tend to forget about what should be their local allegiances. Get that damn Nebraska and Iowa sweatshirt off and get the local college sweatshirt on. To me loyalty is loyalty. I don't care if a team across the boarder is playing big time major college football or basketball I am still going to care about my school first. I don't think alot of people take that same way of thinking. I have known plenty of people when I went to USD that cared much more about their favorite major college team than they did the Coyotes and they had no ties whatsoever to that major college team. We all know them.

As far as USF is concerned I doubt whether they will be moving straight up to D1 when they are currently in NAIA. I could definately see them going D2 but to move to D1 is going to take some time, but really what do I know. Not many of us thought Augustana was even going to approach D1 status but now the possibility might be more than just a stupid pipe dream. I am of the believe that a school should be where they want to be whether that is NAIA, D2 or D1. As long as the majority of fans are happy a school should go where they feel like they should be.

[jackmd]

Re: Best for SDSU--USD? Augie? Both? Neither?

 

What really makes me wonder is this.  Whether or not an Augie, SDSU, USD, Northern, Dakota State, Black Hills State fan why is it that so many people just tend to forget about what should be their local allegiances.  Get that damn Nebraska and Iowa sweatshirt off and get the local college sweatshirt on.  To me loyalty is loyalty.  I don't care if a team across the boarder is playing big time major college football or basketball I am still going to care about my school first.  I don't think alot of people take that same way of thinking.  I have known plenty of people when I went to USD that cared much more about their favorite major college team than they did the Coyotes and they had no ties whatsoever to that major college team.  We all know them.    

Good post from a guy/gal with some perspective. Agree with this complaint. I'm a Jackrabbit not a husker or a hawkeye.

[SDSUHuskies]

Re: Best for SDSU--USD? Augie? Both? Neither?

As far as USF is concerned I doubt whether they will be moving straight up to D1 when they are currently in NAIA.  I could definately see them going D2 but to move to D1 is going to take some time, but really what do I know.  Not many of us thought Augustana was even going to approach D1 status but now the possibility might be more than just a stupid pipe dream.  I am of the believe that a school should be where they want to be whether that is NAIA, D2 or D1.  As long as the majority of fans are happy a school should go where they feel like they should be.

Just pointing out that IPFW went D1 back in 2000? or was it 1999? Anyway, about seven years later they are in the Mid-Co Conference..here is there revenue/expense statement from 2004-05 for IPFW(you can compare a SD college and estimate what they would get for certain things)..I don't really understand it much..are these the things that colleges look at before going D1?

Football Men's Basketball Women's Basketball Other Non Program Specific Total Ticket Sales $0  $61,533  $1,701  $6,023  $28,617  $97,874   Student Fees $0  $0  $0  $0  $1,186,708  $1,186,708   Guarantees $0  $261,000  $27,500  $5,100  $0  $293,600   Contributions $0  $22,345  $140  $77,841  $343,005  $443,331   Third Party Support $0  $0  $0  $0  $368,950  $368,950   Government Support $0  $0  $0  $2,476  $10,845  $13,321   Direct Institutional Support $0  $155,765  $175,142  $618,977  $135,637  $1,085,521   Indirect Institutional Support $0  $0  $0  $0  $210,000  $210,000   NCAA/Conference Distributions $0  $0  $0  $0  $158,312  $158,312   Individual School Media Rights $0  $0  $0  $0  $0  $0   Concessions, Programs, Parking $0  $0  $0  $55  $18,814  $18,869   Advertisements & Sponsorship $0  $0  $0  $10,550  $123,798  $134,348   Sports Camps $0  $7,055  $3,150  $22,936  $0  $33,141   Endowments/Investments $0  $76  $0  $2,573  $35,246  $37,895   Other $0  $0  $0  $29,678  $6,824  $36,502   Subtotal $0  $507,774  $207,633  $776,209  $2,626,756  $4,118,372

Football Men's Basketball Women's Basketball Other Non Program Specific Total Student Aid $0  $200,544  $207,789  $696,014  $36,266  $1,140,613   Guarantees $0  $6,000  $0  $1,000  $10,100  $17,100   Salaries $0  $128,152  $95,557  $399,924  $0  $623,633   Other Coaches' Comp. $0  $0  $0  $0  $0  $0   Support Staff Salaries $0  $7,530  $0  $954  $277,889  $286,373   Other Support Staff Comp $0  $0  $0  $0  $368,950  $368,950   Severence Payments $0  $0  $0  $0  $0  $0   Recruiting $0  $23,493  $22,359  $16,333  $0  $62,185   Team Travel $0  $102,204  $96,333  $367,864  $2,253  $568,654   Equipment $0  $12,463  $13,905  $108,584  $1,181  $136,133   Game Expenses $0  $31,375  $25,156  $34,729  $4,230  $95,490   Promotion $0  $3,914  $412  $22,972  $81,114  $108,412   Sports Camp $0  $2,961  $1,914  $20,866  $0  $25,741   Facilities, Maintenance $0  $36,483  $385  $17,242  $5,228  $59,338   Spirit Groups $0  $0  $0  $0  $8,765  $8,765   Indirect Institutional Support $0  $0  $0  $0  $210,000  $210,000   Medical $0  $937  $706  $707  $279,301  $281,651   Memberships $0  $335  $435  $3,177  $800  $4,747   Other Operating $0  $15,930  $9,662  $36,219  $64,653  $126,464   Total Operating $0  $572,321  $474,613  $1,726,585  $1,350,730  $4,124,249   Expense to Revenue Difference $0  $-64,547  $-266,980  $-950,376  $1,276,026  $-5,877

[MilwaukeeJacksAlum]

Re: Best for SDSU--USD? Augie? Both? Neither?

What really makes me wonder is this.  Whether or not an Augie, SDSU, USD, Northern, Dakota State, Black Hills State fan why is it that so many people just tend to forget about what should be their local allegiances.  Get that damn Nebraska and Iowa sweatshirt off and get the local college sweatshirt on.  To me loyalty is loyalty.  I don't care if a team across the boarder is playing big time major college football or basketball I am still going to care about my school first.  I don't think alot of people take that same way of thinking.  I have known plenty of people when I went to USD that cared much more about their favorite major college team than they did the Coyotes and they had no ties whatsoever to that major college team.  We all know them.  

Couldn't agree more. I always hated that when I was in school. Buy a Jacks/Yotes sweatshirt and wear it to the next home game. You're paying for the education and will have a diploma saying you graduated from that school. Why not invest in the school as a fan? If you walk around southeastern SD, you'll find more Hawkeyes fans than you can imagine.

[Coyote_Fan]

Re: Best for SDSU--USD? Augie? Both? Neither?

I like to see both schools stay DII.

Augie may have a better chance if they drop football and just focus on BB and other sports. Plus privite may have better chance in pulling it off. USD I feel would be better served in the long run at DII and focus on education.

SDSU is doing fine by themselves and it is only getting better.


What better spring then having
--the SDSU women and men in the big dance
--the USD or Northern BB in DII elite eight
--one or all USF,DWU,BHSU,SD Tech etc.... making the NAIA tourny

USD staying D2 might serve your best interests as an SDSU fan but it doesn't best serve USD's interest the way it looks. Since SDSU is basically a vastly superior school compared to USD and Augie according to many that have SDSU ties the other schools moving up should really not have an effect at all. Afterall SDSU is by far the choice for any recruit that is deciding between the three schools. Don't worry about the recruiting issue because SDSU will get 95% of the athletes that they are competing with USD to get. To those that think that SDSU is far superior, you should probably buy into that way of thinking. When or if USD goes D1, they will lose nearly all their recruiting battles to SDSU. So basically if the two teams play in any sport it will be SDSU's D1 athletes vs USD's D2 (D1 wannabe) athletes. There really will never be an excuse to lose to USD then either.

[Rabbitden]

Re: Best for SDSU--USD? Augie? Both? Neither?

My, my how USD's interest have changed over a three year period.  

Div.I is the wrong move everybody in the state of South Dakota...SDSU doesnt have a clue to what they are talking about.  We are going to stay focused on the ever stronger NCC and Div. II.  The division is not going to get weaker with other schools jumping to Div. II and wanting more and more waterdowned rules and scholarships.  We think it is best for all of SD to stay put...we will become the Princeton on the Prairie and get all the brightest that SD has to offer.

Woooops...weve got to make the jump, everything is falling apart in the NCC, SDSU is getting all of the brightest and best in SD, the smaller schools in Div. II want new rules, oh my word what do we do?

Again, your reasoning is falling on deaf ears...good luck, find the money, make the jump and let the cards fall where they may.  Until then dont come on here telling us how it is.  We were bright enough to see the future and go.  

Your energy in attempting to make Jack fans believe would be better used by focusing on making other yote backers believe.

Bye, Bye!

P.S.
Get rid of the Pride of South Dakota tag..."The Pride of the Dakotas" is SDSU's marching band. At least you could find something true to USD and be a leader instead of a follower by using something that truly belongs to SDSU?

Den Out!

[NightHawk78]

Re: Best for SDSU--USD? Augie? Both? Neither?

While USD is mired in its indecisive mediocrity, Augie's decision is looming in the background. (I would find it hilarious if Augie moved up and USD stayed behind.) Has anyone heard any rumblings (or whispers) about its blue-ribbon committee that has been examining NCAA affliation???

[g_mandakota]

Re: Best for SDSU--USD? Augie? Both? Neither?

There is a post over on the Coyote Board. According to the Coyote Board, the following email was sent out to all faculty and students:


Quote from Coyote Board:
The University of South Dakota is a research university with a broad array of
undergraduate, graduate and professional degree programs. These academic
characteristics are more consistent with Division I institutions than with those in Division II. USD?s peer institutions, regionally and nationally, sponsor Division I athletic programs, either through an individual sport or the entire program.
Every flagship institution in the United States classifies at least one sport at the Division I level, and most classify their entire athletic programs at that level. Although, the University of North Dakota has sponsored Division I programs for several years in men?s and recently in women?s hockey, their recent announcement indicates an intent to have all sports competing at the Division I level, consistent with its flagship designation. In addition, South Dakota is the only state in the United States that does not have its flagship and primary land grant institution sponsoring DI athletics.

I thought SDSU was the land grant institution for South Dakota?