Why USD CAN go DI.

[Yote53]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

Sure I expected more than a few sharp teeth when posting here. This is enemy territory. I am here to give you a glimpse of what a U person's perspective is.

First of all, I do hate State, with a passion. I played in my share of State/U games, and it was a blast. It is a rivalry that needs to be renewed. That will happen when USD moves up to D1.

Second, every one of our big games is gone now. The feeling in town once State moved on was not for that "forced" rivalry with Augie, that just didn't take. It was the border battle with UND that we looked forward to and started to take shape. That will all end now, unless we go along with them like you did with the Bison.

Third, lack of a conference. No matter what you say the NCC is doomed. UNO only has to go south and the NCC house of cards falls. So, we have a choice, join with the NSIC, Northern, Wayne, et al. Or move up to the division where the rest of the schools like ours are.

Fourth, money, money, money. USD is not currently flush with it like NDSU was or UND, but what USD did suffer from was years of not tapping it's donor sources. That is happening now. There is ALOT of potential there and I think Pres. Abbott is the right guy at the right time for this job. And I am a Republican saying that!

The same arguments for SDSU not making the jump can be made for USD. Have to increase budget, how can they afford that, they'll never make it. So how is your move going? Doing alright? So why wouldn't we be able to do the same thing? The starting points are near the same, budgetwise.

As far as support goes, state went out on a limb. They could have just stayed in their comfortable spot in the NCC. Where do you think a Coyote fane feels more comfortable now? In the NCC waiting for the other shoe to drop so I can pull out my map to Aberdeen every year, or to move up and try to make our own way? The U is at a crossroads here and is facing a choice, we are not stepping out on a limb and making what could be seen as a risky move. Basically, it is risky either way. All that being said, it makes it that much easier to make the case to U fans and garner support. Easier than what State faced because you were moving out of a comfortable situation.

[jackrabit1]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

At least we had the guts to try and get out of our comfort zone.

What you have to realize is that Division II is about to become a shell of it's former self. With new schools coming in from the NAIA ranks, a lot of them are not going to be able to meet the 36 schollie maximum that USD and the rest of the NCC enjoys. And to "level the field" as it were, they are going to push and push and push until the maximum schollie level is lowered... it'll make the playing field more "equal" but it'll also water down the talent that's in D-II.

They're already trying it... and I fear it's a matter of time before they succeed. And then all the successful conferences, including the NCC are going to be penalized in essence for their success, because "It's not fair!"

So we moved up. We asked the rest of the conference to do the same. It would have been a lot easier to move up as a whole. We would have kept our scholarship levels on an even keel, we would have kept our rivalries, and we could have grown our budgets at a reasonable level.

We could have had the NCC move up into something fantastic... a bunch of midwestern hicks becoming a solid mid-major contender. Kicking the crap out of such conferences as the Big Sky, Mid-Continent, and Big West in time. We coulda been KINGS!!!

But no. "Too Risky!" "It'll never work!" "Out of your minds!" The "woe is me" mentality that seems to afflict all too many of us in the upper-midwest.

Well, we took the risk... and we are taking our lumps, for sure, but we are also making great strides.

As for the NCC, well... whatever fate befalls it, it is due to its own short-sightedness.

[Haldersham]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

Sure I expected more than a few sharp teeth when posting here.  This is enemy territory.  I am here to give you a glimpse of what a U person's perspective is.  

First of all, I do hate State, with a passion.  I played in my share of State/U games, and it was a blast.  It is a rivalry that needs to be renewed.  That will happen when USD moves up to D1.  

Second, every one of our big games is gone now.  The feeling in town once State moved on was not for that "forced" rivalry with Augie, that just didn't take.  It was the border battle with UND that we looked forward to and started to take shape.  That will all end now, unless we go along with them like you did with the Bison.  

Third, lack of a conference.  No matter what you say the NCC is doomed.  UNO only has to go south and the NCC house of cards falls.  So, we have a choice, join with the NSIC, Northern, Wayne, et al.  Or move up to the division where the rest of the schools like ours are.  

Fourth, money, money, money.  USD is not currently flush with it like NDSU was or UND, but what USD did suffer from was years of not tapping it's donor sources.  That is happening now.  There is ALOT of potential there and I think Pres. Abbott is the right guy at the right time for this job.  And I am a Republican saying that!  

The same arguments for SDSU not making the jump can be made for USD.  Have to increase budget, how can they afford that, they'll never make it.  So how is your move going?  Doing alright?  So why wouldn't we be able to do the same thing?  The starting points are near the same, budgetwise.

As far as support goes, state went out on a limb.  They could have just stayed in their comfortable spot in the NCC.  Where do you think a Coyote fane feels more comfortable now?  In the NCC waiting for the other shoe to drop so I can pull out my map to Aberdeen every year, or to move up and try to make our own way?    The U is at a crossroads here and is facing a choice, we are not stepping out on a limb and making what could be seen as a risky move.  Basically, it is risky either way.  All that being said, it makes it that much easier to make the case to U fans and garner support.  Easier than what State faced because you were moving out of a comfortable situation.

Why is it so important to hate State? A lot of resources and energy is wasted on hanger and resentment. Respect now that is a better approach. When that starts to come out of USD towards SDSU then my attitude will certainly change. Once again we see USD trying to catch up with SDSU and do what is necessary to keep up. When will USD make a decision that is good for USD?

[West_River_Jack]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

Why is it so important to hate State? A lot of resources and energy is wasted on hanger and resentment. Respect now that is a better approach. When that starts to come out of USD towards SDSU then my attitude will certainly change. Once again we see USD trying to catch up with SDSU and do what is necessary to keep up. When will USD make a decision that is good for USD?

Haldersham makes a good point!  When I was at SDSU (as a non-athlete) we were in the big days of Hate State and Screw the U/Cut the Coyotes.  Then I spent a little time living in Vermillion and truthfully enjoyed it as a quaint and quiet community.  When my daughter gave all of her blue and yellow Jackrabbit clothing to a high school classmate headed for SDSU and accepted her offer of admission to USD it was quite a disappointment for me.  Since being there she has come to appreciate the same quaintness of community that I enjoyed.  She has excelled in the academic arena and grown as a person.  And I have grown too.  I have gained a new respect for USD academics.  Its been a bit difficult but I am now able to cheer for the Coyotes as my D2 team of choice.  Thus my excitement when I realized that I can catch both the Coyotes and the Jackrabbits in home games on the same trip east from the Black Hills!  I realize that not very many Jackrabbit fans have formed these ties with Vermillion/USD and I don't expect that very many Coyote fans have similar ties to Brookings/SDSU.  This is ok.  But we can respect each other as fellow South Dakotans and as Brother or Sister (take your pick) Universities.

My daughter is quite close to two of the people on the USD committee to review its affiliation.  She assures me that both of them are very confident and well respected individuals.  Both are acamemic leaders at USD and also faithful supporters of USD athletics.  She assures me that each will consider what is best for the University as a whole.  Neither will be "yes people" for a decision that some believe has already been made.  Obviously two people are a minority of this committee but we can be confident that the committee will take its work seriously and make a decision that is good for USD.  Whether the president and Board of Regents will follow the committees advice  will be known only when it does or does not happen.

[Haldersham]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

West River Jack

++++++ good points, I too have relatives who have attended USD and they seem to hide their Hate State thinking while around me, but thats okay.

I think it good to have a representative committee to make the study and so forth, but I still feel they would gain considerable insight and also have a plan in place if they hired Carr & Associates. Carr would focus on USD and not NDSU or SDSU even though they have completed studies for both. Some may argue that Carr does boilplate reports, but I dont think so. The one at SDSU has basically been a blue print for our move to D1 and if you were to look at the full narrative of the study you will find they looked at every sport, facility and made recommendations as to what needs to be done and put a price tag on each recommendation. USD would not have to follow the study in every detail, but the committee then would have some solid facts to consider.

[Yote53]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

State took a risk and it has paid off so far. USD now faces a risk either way. I pointed that out as a reason as to why U will face less internal opposition than State did when they made their move. Pretty much a rock and a hard place situation.

I happen to like a heated rivalry between schools that are bitter towards one another. Just my preference. I am not touchy feely. I don't agree with "participation trophies" or not keeping score. A rivalry such as the one State/U had made the victories sweeter and the losses harder to take. That is an element that is missing right now from the schedules. So you can call it hate, call it passion, call it whatever, but competition is good. It is what drives humans to excel and drive to achieve something greater.

[HoboD]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

I think Yotes points about rivalry are good. My most vivid memories of being a student/fan are of the games with USD, the other games for the most part are a blure. Playing IPFW will never fill Frost. Playing USD will fill it every time. Once the SU's get in the Mid con, I hope the U's follow in a couple of years.

[Haldersham]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

State took a risk and it has paid off so far.  USD now faces a risk either way.  I pointed that out as a reason as to why U will face less internal opposition than State did when they made their move.  Pretty much a rock and a hard place situation.

I happen to like a heated rivalry between schools that are bitter towards one another.  Just my preference.  I am not touchy feely.  I don't agree with "participation trophies" or not keeping score.  A rivalry such as the one State/U had made the victories sweeter and the losses harder to take.  That is an element that is missing right now from the schedules.  So you can call it hate, call it passion, call it whatever, but competition is good.  It is what drives humans to excel and drive to achieve something greater.

Yote53:

Bitterness is not helpful to any one, even to an individual such as yourself who as long since hung up the pads. You may have been a good football player and represented USD in a honorable manner, but does that give you the right to have an immature attitude for the rest of your life? I dont think so. If you feel so passionate about USD, do you plan on opening your checkbook to the Coyote Club?

I think most of the internal opposition with the SDSU family was over blown. Yes people like Jim Marking and Harry Mansheim spoke their piece but they had little impact as most people had a wait and see attitude. Harry testified before a legislative committee in Pierre as did the Senator from the Vermillion area Frank Klocscek who is a SDSU alum. Both have had little to say lately. This seems to document the notion Frank K. was trying to placate the USD people in his legistlative district. Harry's daughter is doing real well in D1 track so he has had very little to say. In fact he drives Ron Dehaven up the wall at the Jackrabbit club meetings in Brookings.

Most of the opposition came from the USD communitiy so the opposition was by far more external than internal.

As you can tell by some of the SDSU people who have chimed in on this thread and others, they seem to favor USD's move to D1. Myself, I have a few doubts, but I am going to leave the concerns and considerations to your committee. I certainly am not going to shoot my mouth off like a number of USD people did three years ago.

[1stRowFANatic]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

Once again Haldersham proves a great addition to the board.

[Coyote_Fan]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

Whoever sucks at the internet, it certainly wouldn't be a Coyote Fan or they would be wearing red. It's probably a Jacks fan just because of what they are wearing.

[filbert]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

[quote author=CatchEmAll link=1150320172/60#63 date=1154281337]

Whoever sucks at the internet, it certainly wouldn't be a Coyote Fan or they would be wearing red. It's probably a Jacks fan just because of what they are wearing.[/quote]

Did you perhaps miss the reminder that this is not a smack thread?

Most of the discussion on this thread has been more or less respectful. It would be a courtesy for you to all readers and posters (regardless of school affiliation or preference) if you could assist in keeping it that way.

Thank you.

[NightHawk78]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

I'll help get things back on topic.

Reasons why USD can go D-1 and succeed:

1) Football guarantee games, even against some D-1AA schools and (hopefully) six-figure deals with I-A schools once they are a counter.
2) D-1 may be the push that USD needs to (finally) start building a decent basketball facility.
3) Renewed enthusiasm (and increased cash flows) from its alums and boosters.
4) Revived rivalries with SDSU, NDSU, and UND will increase attendance and season ticket sales.
5) The institution will be driven by desire to be better than SDSU, instead of being fueled by hate and jealousy.
6) USD fans will have the chance to see exciting, meaningful non-conference games again.
7) The University can go to Pierre with their heads held up high (and their hands sticking out for cash) and tell the Legislature that it is striving for excellence and not settling for mediocrity.

A move by USD to D-1 is not going to be easy, but I feel that it is vital to future success of the institution and its athletic dept. Essentially every school that had been in the NCC for several decades (except Morningside, which probably is more of a reflection of Sioux City's stagnation) has moved up to (or is studying the move to) D-1.

Question: Can you think of any other state-supported universities that have law and/or med schools that do not have D-1 athletic programs???

[Haldersham]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

I'll help get things back on topic.

Reasons why USD can go D-1 and succeed:

1) Football guarantee games, even against some D-1AA schools and (hopefully) six-figure deals with I-A schools once they are a counter.
2) D-1 may be the push that USD needs to (finally) start building a decent basketball facility.
3) Renewed enthusiasm (and increased cash flows) from its alums and boosters.
4) Revived rivalries with SDSU, NDSU, and UND will increase attendance and season ticket sales.
5) The institution will be driven by desire to be better than SDSU, instead of being fueled by hate and jealousy.
6) USD fans will have the chance to see exciting, meaningful non-conference games again.
7) The University can go to Pierre with their heads held up high (and their hands sticking out for cash) and tell the Legislature that it is striving for excellence and not settling for mediocrity.

A move by USD to D-1 is not going to be easy, but I feel that it is vital to future success of the institution and its athletic dept. Essentially every school that had been in the NCC for several decades (except Morningside, which probably is more of a reflection of Sioux City's stagnation) has moved up to (or is studying the move to) D-1.

Question: Can you think of any other state-supported universities that have law and/or med schools that do not have D-1 athletic programs???

I think you have made good points except No 7. I dont doubt it will happen that is USD going to the legislature for help, but it should not happen. The state of South Dakota  owes SDSU one big favor for allowing the tobacco money to be used to finish the new roof on the Dakota Dome.  What did SDSU and the other four state assisted institution get from the tobacco money? Nothing. USD got something like 4.5 million. Thanks Wild Bill.

The BOR has had its standards in place for SDSU going D1. It would bother me to no end if they soften their stance in order to accomodate a D1 program at USD.  The D1 program has to come from the USD family, meaning alums and friends. It should never be tax payer money.  Where is Al Neuharth when they really need him?

[1stRowFANatic]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

Oh I wish I could remember which story had the Tad Perry quote, but he said the BOR is firm in its position on schools going D-1. The route SDSU had to travel will be the one that any school would have to go.

[CatchEmAll]

Re: Why USD CAN go DI.

Great post Nighthawk, but here's my take on your points:

1) Football guarantee games, even against some D-1AA schools and (hopefully) six-figure deals with I-A schools once they are a counter.  Those games are atleast 6 years out and how many can they get when the SU's and UND are also looking for $$ games

2) D-1 may be the push that USD needs to (finally) start building a decent basketball facility. Will this be on USD generated money, or will they go to the state for the funds? I can't see the university raising the funds for a new facility, and can't see the state backing a project like that.

3) Renewed enthusiasm (and increased cash flows) from its alums and boosters. Renewed?

4) Revived rivalries with SDSU, NDSU, and UND will increase attendance and season ticket sales. Three games doesn't a lot of money make. A lot of people used to think the USD game was great for our budget. Yes, and no. We could never count on that one game (or NDSU & UND) to make up for any shortfalls we had with other games. It's about overall quality of the schedule that really affects attendance numbers

5) The institution will be driven by desire to be better than SDSU, instead of being fueled by hate and jealousy. The hate and jealousy will always be there. And we'll always be better IMO.

6) USD fans will have the chance to see exciting, meaningful non-conference games again. Something they've been lacking for a long, long time. Great point!

7) The University can go to Pierre with their heads held up high (and their hands sticking out for cash) and tell the Legislature that it is striving for excellence and not settling for mediocrity. Sarcasm??

Again, great post Nighthawk. I hope you don't think I'm taking a shot at you with my responses. Just voicing my take on what are some good points to ponder.