UND logo (aka The Logo That Dare Not Be Seen)

[91rabbit]

Here is an interesting (and, of course, neglected and underreported ) aspect of the mother of all PC wars:

http://www.startribune.com/191/story/806092.html

[1stRowFANatic]

Re: UND logo (aka The Logo That Dare Not Be Seen)

While some of the points she makes I agree with, I do have to say that I take all her columns with a grain of salt. Here is a quote from the column that should give everyone pause when considering her article.

"Although North Dakota's Spirit Lake Sioux Tribe has approved UND's use of the name, Indian bodies such as the Standing Rock Tribal Council have passed resolutions asking UND to reject it."

This sentence implies that the Spirit Lake Sioux Tribe has the authority to speak for all members of that tribe, while the Stading Rock Tribal Council does not. The SLST approved the use by a vote of its tribal council on resolutions before it. I wonder why she gives weight to one tribal council and not the other. Could it be that one agrees with her and the other does not?

[dr_jack]

Re: UND logo (aka The Logo That Dare Not Be Seen)

Can anyone name any Sioux tribes other than the Spirit Lake Sioux Tribe that approve the use of the name? I don't know any other Native Americans who approve of the use of the "Fighting Sioux" nickname or any other caricature of Native culture. Talk to some Native American people and see what they think of the "Redskins" and Chief Wahoo or Chief Illiniwek or the "Fighting Sioux".

Who's to say what's offensive to another group with an entirely different set of experiences? Maybe those (mostly non-native people) who support the "Fighting Sioux" don't mean it in an offensive way. But then again, maybe there are some unintended meanings among Native Americans that us white folks just can't fully comprehend.

[Haldersham]

Re: UND logo (aka The Logo That Dare Not Be Seen)

I happened to be in North Dakota last week when this hearing was going on. The hearing was to determine if UND could host a playoff game and continue to use the Fighting Sioux Logo.

The news channels mentioned without comment that the judge who heard the case and made the decision to allow UND to host the playoff  was a graduate of UND both undergraduate and graduate. The reason this hearing and the case is being heard in the North Dakota State System apparently is that the law suit was filed in North Dakota by UND and the NCAA is the defendant. It seems like a judge under these circumstances would recuse themselves from the case and this specific hearing since they are by their earned degrees connected to UND who is a part in the law suit. I wonder if any judge in ND is not a graduate of UND. Some may have gone to NDSU for their undergrad, but nearly all went to UND for law.

I like to hear from our attorneys on this board. Am I on to something or  are there  circumstances where the Judge an UND alum and is unprejudical and can do so without prejudice. The connection of the judge to UND almost made his ruling a slam dunk in my mind.

Dave Kolpeck who I believe works for the Associated Press covered the entire hearing and was interviewed on a local radio talk show. Dave a brother of Jeff Kolpeck seemed to think that UND would not prevail in its case against the NCAA. He said the NCAA has some very good lawyers.


BTW, if SDSU was in a similar situation, I would rather see the institution use its resources for other things such as new majors, facilities or any other purpose then to fight a law suit. I really can not see fighting for this logo. Alums and fans will adjust.

[1stRowFANatic]

Re: UND logo (aka The Logo That Dare Not Be Seen)

Its called getting home-towned. But if you think about it, should every judge have to recuse him/herself in every case involving UND? If so, what about when the state of ND is a party to the case? The state funds the law school so does that involve a conflict? If that is the case, where is a ND resident to go when they want to bring legal action against the school or state, no other courts would have any jurisdiction. While I have not read anything other than the headlines that UND got a preliminary injuncition, I have read a few legal opinion stories back when the NCAA announced this rule. As I recall, the opinions were mostly mixed, but it is not completely out of reason that UND could win all the way up. Fighting Sioux/Fighting Irish - both have supporters and detractors. In addition, some schools that have tribal support are allowed to keep theirs while others are not. By the way, there are some very good lawyers in North Dakota.

[JBNJBQ]

Re: UND logo (aka The Logo That Dare Not Be Seen)

HEY, KEEP THE NAME JUST CHANGE THE LOGO...




undII "FIGHTING SUE"


;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


JBNJBQ

[filbert]

Re: UND logo (aka The Logo That Dare Not Be Seen)

Man, that photo is just DISTURBING.

But, you did get the colors right, so extra smack points to you!

[filbert]

Re: UND logo (aka The Logo That Dare Not Be Seen)

Oh, yeah.

(cough, cough)

Please keep smack on the smack board only.

(cough, cough, chuckle, geez I need a break or something . . . )

[filbert]

Re: UND logo (aka The Logo That Dare Not Be Seen)

Ah, good. I need to replace our sink garbage disposal. A welcome break from Global Moderatorism.

[Haldersham]

Re: UND logo (aka The Logo That Dare Not Be Seen)

Its called getting home-towned. But if you think about it, should every judge have to recuse him/herself in every case involving UND? If so, what about when the state of ND is a party to the case? The state funds the law school so does that involve a conflict? If that is the case, where is a ND resident to go when they want to bring legal action against the school or state, no other courts would have any jurisdiction. While I have not read anything other than the headlines that UND got a preliminary injuncition, I have read a few legal opinion stories back when the NCAA announced this rule. As I recall, the opinions were mostly mixed, but it is not completely out of reason that UND could win all the way up. Fighting Sioux/Fighting Irish - both have supporters and detractors. In addition, some schools that have tribal support are allowed to keep theirs while others are not. By the way, there are some very good lawyers in North Dakota.

Good points, I assume this judge who presided over the hearing was impartial as best he could. Maybe we should give UND some credit for not running to the fed system to file their suit. I would think since the NCAA membership is present in all 50 states, that this case would be in federal court, but I am not a lawyer nor do I play on TV. The context of the Dave Kolpeck comment is that his Dad, Ed and brother Jeff are all NDSU grads and have been writing about NDSU sports for decades so I can see how that might cloud his judgement somewhat. I think the venue of state over federal does give UND some hope. It not like they could get 12 jurors who would rule against UND. Thats how I see it.  Oh yes there are very good lawyers in ND just as there are in SD.

[thebluehatman]

Dartmouth AD: UND mascot 'offensive and wrong'

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2675315

A Dartmouth College official who disagrees with the University of North Dakota's "Fighting Sioux" nickname has publicly apologized for a hockey tournament that is to include the UND team.

"I must offer a sincere apology to the Native American community, and the Dartmouth community as a whole, for an event that will understandably offend and hurt people within our community," Dartmouth athletics director Josie Harper wrote in a recent letter to the editor that was published in the college newspaper, The Dartmouth.

The UND men's hockey team is scheduled to play Dartmouth in Hanover, N.H., on Dec. 29. Harper said that when the scheduling was done nearly two years ago, the UND nickname and American Indian head logo were not considered. "I deeply regret that we didn't," she wrote.

UND spokesman Peter Johnson referred questions to the attorney general's office, which is handling a lawsuit for the university against the NCAA. The office was closed Saturday.

The NCAA listed UND among a handful of schools with American Indian nicknames and logos that are considered hostile and abusive. Those schools are barred from holding postseason tournaments, or from using their logos during any playoff games.

UND is suing the NCAA over the restrictions, and recently won a preliminary injunction against the NCAA until the matter is decided in court. A trial is scheduled for April 24.

Harper called UND's position "offensive and wrong."

Her letter was published the same day as an article in The Dartmouth about a string of incidents at the college this fall that many Indian students viewed as racist. One of them was a crew team party with a "cowboys and Indians" theme.

College President James Wright on Monday apologized for the incidents.

Harper, in her letter, offered the support of the athletic department "in playing a leading role to combat racial, ethnic and sexist ignorance and intolerance on our campus."

Dartmouth discontinued its unofficial Indian mascot in the 1970s, but some students and alumni have continued to use it.

[SoDak]

Re: UND logo (aka The Logo That Dare Not Be Seen)

Personally, I find the entire Ivy League, and it's faculty 'offensive and wrong'.

[JackJD]

Re: UND logo (aka The Logo That Dare Not Be Seen)

I like to hear from our attorneys on this board. Am I on to something or  are there  circumstances where the Judge an UND alum and is unprejudical and can do so without prejudice. The connection of the judge to UND almost made his ruling a slam dunk in my mind.

The State Court Judge's Memorandum Decision and Order, granting the injunctive relief sought by the State/UND, is here:
http://www.ag.state.nd.us/NCAA/Memor...Injunction.pdf

I'm not going to comment much on the controversy...I haven't studied it, thought about it much, and have little interest in it.  With respect to Haldersham's questions about the State-court Judge sitting on the case...I'm not licensed in ND but I am confident that a mechanism exists under ND State-Court procedure rules for asking a judge to recuse himself from a case.  Was this judge challenged by either side?  I haven't read that he was.  Perhaps the NCAA's lawyers felt he was okay to leave on the case.

The Judge assigned to the case is a graduate of UND, both undergrad and law school. What little I've heard (and it is very little) about him indicates he's a straight shooter.

[Walrus]

Re: UND logo (aka The Logo That Dare Not Be Seen)

Personally, I find the entire Ivy League, and it's faculty 'offensive and wrong'.

Couldn't have put that any better myself.

[Haldersham]

Re: UND logo (aka The Logo That Dare Not Be Seen)

[quote author=Haldersham link=1163524069/0#3 date=1163556450]
I like to hear from our attorneys on this board. Am I on to something or  are there  circumstances where the Judge an UND alum and is unprejudical and can do so without prejudice. The connection of the judge to UND almost made his ruling a slam dunk in my mind.

The State Court Judge's Memorandum Decision and Order, granting the injunctive relief sought by the State/UND, is here:
http://www.ag.state.nd.us/NCAA/Memor...Injunction.pdf

I'm not going to comment much on the controversy...I haven't studied it, thought about it much, and have little interest in it.  With respect to Haldersham's questions about the State-court Judge sitting on the case...I'm not licensed in ND but I am confident that a mechanism exists under ND State-Court procedure rules for asking a judge to recuse himself from a case.  Was this judge challenged by either side?  I haven't read that he was.  Perhaps the NCAA's lawyers felt he was okay to leave on the case.

The Judge assigned to the case is a graduate of UND, both undergrad and law school.  What little I've heard (and it is very little) about him indicates he's a straight shooter.

[/quote]

JackJD:
No the NCAA never challenged the fact that the judge had both degrees from UND. They just made their arguements and the judge ruled. This recusal thing just crossed my mind when I was watching the the news clip on TV. Thanks for your insight on this case.