Refs

[Grizzled_Jack]

I was in charge of programs for the local Optimist Club for September so decided to have a basketball theme.

First two weeks were Lindenwood women's and men's coaches and third week was a P5 ref who also coordinated officials for a D2,D3, NAIA and Juco conference. Never thought much about refs, and my memory's going, so thought I should write a couple of things down while I still can...

Ref's name is Gerry Pollard and he started off with a bunch of Bobby Knight in your face type stories which were interesting. I enjoyed knowing a bit about coordination, however.

1. He runs ref. coaching clinics which get hundreds of participants annually. They pick less than a handful to work the consortium, so most of these guys go, and go, and go again to stoke their hopes. Maybe they get high school jobs.

2. He pairs refs according to experience, so if you're just starting out, he'll get somebody to work with you with significant D2 experience and throw you in a JUCO game.

3. GLVC (the top of his consortium) games pay just under $300. Home team pays. D3/NAIA/Juco games pay upper $100's. All D1 leagues pay over a thou a game, with power 5 paying over three grand.

4. He doesn't ref at any of the levels he coordinates because of conflict of interest.

5. He coordinates men's basketball only, although the same $290+ per game ref cost is paid for women's games according to Katie Falco.

6. Katie told me that while she was in Brookings she was shocked to see the D1 ref she had used on Saturday reffing a small school high school game she was scouting in northwest Iowa, so I guess some of these people just like to ref at any level. She thought that would be tough because you have to keep rules permutations in your head while reffing at different levels.

No one else is probably interested in this, but thought I'd get it down while I still remember some of it. Should have made notes.

[Nidaros]

Re: Refs

I was in charge of programs for the local Optimist Club for September so decided to have a basketball theme.

First two weeks were Lindenwood women's and men's coaches and third week was a P5 ref who also coordinated officials for a D2,D3, NAIA and Juco conference. Never thought much about refs, and my memory's going, so thought I should write a couple of things down while I still can...

Ref's name is Gerry Pollard and he started off with a bunch of Bobby Knight in your face type stories which were interesting. I enjoyed knowing a bit about coordination, however.

1. He runs ref. coaching clinics which get hundreds of participants annually. They pick less than a handful to work the consortium, so most of these guys go, and go, and go again to stoke their hopes. Maybe they get high school jobs.

2. He pairs refs according to experience, so if you're just starting out, he'll get somebody to work with you with significant D2 experience and throw you in a JUCO game.

3. GLVC (the top of his consortium) games pay just under $300. Home team pays. D3/NAIA/Juco games pay upper $100's. All D1 leagues pay over a thou a game, with power 5 paying over three grand.

4. He doesn't ref at any of the levels he coordinates because of conflict of interest.

5. He coordinates men's basketball only, although the same $290+ per game ref cost is paid for women's games according to Katie Falco.

6. Katie told me that while she was in Brookings she was shocked to see the D1 ref she had used on Saturday reffing a small school high school game she was scouting in northwest Iowa, so I guess some of these people just like to ref at any level. She thought that would be tough because you have to keep rules permutations in your head while reffing at different levels.

No one else is probably interested in this, but thought I'd get it down while I still remember some of it. Should have made notes.

Interesting, I did not realize that it was that competitive. I guess this would be one way to stay in shape if you got chosen.

[Grizzled_Jack]

Re: Refs

Here's the referenced ref clinic-- $375 gets you in the door. Who knew that many people wanted to be refs?

https://www.hoopsofficiating.com/mvc...ing-clinic.cfm

[jackdaniel]

Re: Refs

Home team pays,that explains to some extent some of the "benefit of the doubt calls", I don't mind some of those, it's to be expected somewhat, but if it gets to be too many, it starts to affect the game, and does unfairly put a greater burden on the visitor to win. Also, the money scale is not equal, the p5's having more money pay more, but also probably get more "benefit of the doubt" calls too. You know how it goes...."anytime there's money involved". It is what it is, and for the most part reffing is about as fair to both contestants (teams) as can be I 'd guess. Most games are reffed fairly to both teams despite these other "minor" influences.

My hats off to these guys and gals who have a job where 1/2 (if equal attendence) people in the stands think you did a great job, and the other 1/2 not so much. They must enjoy the games that one side is heavily favored, unless the other team is "oh so close" to pulling off a huge upset, that could be a little more stressful for them.

Never did get an explanation for the call and long review for the Syracuse game (NCAA wbb 2nd rd) where the Syracuse player flew out of bounds and deflected the ball toward Myah Sellends legs, but it hit the floor still out of bounds first, before it hit her legs. Did anyone ever hear the reason for the call? It came at a crucial point late in the game, and the commentators were quite addiment the ball was going to be ours, but it wasn't. It all ended well , the game, but , like I said, never did hear the reason the possession was given to Syracuse.... if anyone knows why, i'd greatly appreciate if you could share the reason the call and review was determined the way it was, just for curiosities sake.

[GopherHole]

Re: Refs

I attended a clinic in Nebraska in August where we had two officials from the state who are P5 white hats. It was interesting to hear their perspectives on officiating and what they have to do to prepare for the week. This was a clinic that was designed for primarily high school officials as there are other clinics like the one that you referenced in the region. I have had a few of my peers from my area travel out of state to workshops like yours, but I don't think they've gone to St. Louis before.

I suspect the D1 official that you referenced was probably not working a collegiate game the next day. They normally travel to the game on Friday. I worked NAIA JV games one year back in the 90's. I moved to Rapid City after my first year and my family priorities over ruled my desire to pursue it further. My crew chief worked for close to 10 years at that level. Those Saturday games after working Friday nights really blows a weekend. I've also worked a lower lever indoor football league for three years.

The two officials that spoke to our group in August are crew chiefs/white hats for the B1G and Pac-12 respectively. One of the two is working towards the NFL and has done preseason games for a couple of years now. The time those officials commit to working games is huge, but all have other careers. They typically fly to the game at least a day in advance and will meet with a supervisor of officials the day before. The crew will have supper together and spend some time talking over tendencies of the teams and specifically the star players and QBs. (They will study game film at home prior to flying out.) If they have an evening game on Saturday they will generally find something fun to do as a group like golf. Many of the officials at that level don't know their crew mates like a high school or even an NAIA crew would.

After the game they will do a quick debriefing of the game and fly home if it is not too late. The crew chiefs will then grade out his crew as individuals by watching game film. He/she will share their reviews both by phone and email in the next day or two. A supervisor of officials will also grade out the officials and will review it with the crew chief. If they grade out bad, they can be suspended. Grading out good is one of the criteria for officiating conference championships and bowl games. One of the officials shared a story of a game he worked when he was officiating games for the MAC. In a game that a MAC school upset Oklahoma State in a last second score, they actually misinterpreted an unusual foul and it allowed the offense an untimed down after time expired. The replay officials and the coaches didn't realize the error until after the game was over. That crew was suspended for at least one game.

Collegiate officials put in lots of time to work games at that level. The officials that work the MVFC make a huge commitment and are generally officials that are trying to work their way up the food chain. It is far different than officials that work high school games. I've worked with some really good officials in my 31 years and also several really bad officials. We sometimes gripe about what happens on Saturdays with the officials working games, but overall they do a really good job. When my wife attends collegiate or even high school games with me she gets embarrassed when she hears the jeers from the crowds about blown calls. I've seen some where the crowds may have caught something that was missed, but generally what was called on the field was correct.

Thanks for sharing Grizzled_Jack!

[goon]

Re: Refs

Home team pays,that explains to some extent some of the "benefit of the doubt calls", I don't mind some of those, it's to be expected somewhat, but if it gets to be too many, it starts to effect the game, and does unfairly put a greater burden on the visitor to win.Also, the money scale is not equal,the p5's having more money pay more, but also probably get more "benefit of the doubt" calls too.You know how it goes...."anytime there's money involved".It is what it is, and for the most part reffing is about as fair to both contestants (teams) as can be I 'd guess.Most games are reffed fairly to both teams as can be, despite these other "minor" influences.

My hats off to these guys and gals who have a job where 1/2 (if equal attendence) people in the stands think you did a great job, and the other 1/2 not so much.They must enjoy the games that one side is heavily favored, unless the other team is "oh so close" to pulling off a huge upset, that could be a little more stressful for them.

Never did get an explanation for the call and long review for the Syracuse game (NCAA wbb 2nd rd) where the Syracuse player flew out of bounds and deflected the ball toward Myah Sellends legs, but it hit the floor still out of bounds first.Did anyone ever hear the reason for the call? It came at a crucial point late in the game, and the commentators were quite addiment the ball was going to be ours, but it wasn't. It all ended well , the game, but , like I said, never did hear the reason the possession was given to Syracuse.... if anyone knows why, i'd greatly appreciate if you could share the reason the call and review was determined the way it was.

That's probably why a lot of commentators dont say what they think because what seems clear and obvious to them and views at home it isnt to the refs or replay officials.

[GopherHole]

Re: Refs

As far as whose paying the refs affecting the game, I disagree. I'm sure there are a few bad apples who get affected by that, but it has not clouded my mind before on a call. What can affect officials more is the coaching staff. There are some coaches that can really get under the skin of wing officials who have to listen to the ugly banter. Generally, by the time an official gets some experience at higher levels, they've generally mastered how to manage coaches.

I've never gotten in to officiating because of the money and the money for sure does not keep me working games. I can find far better ways to make money than this. I officiate because my love of the game and the chance to work with some great kids. Most officials that I work with feel the same way. One of the most critical calls I ever made occurred during a JV game that my son was playing in. On a rugby style punt, I called roughing the passer on my son's team and took a lot of heat from friends because they ended up losing the game by a point. I made the call because it was the right call to make. Who was paying me and who was playing in the game never impacted my judgement. When I was younger, I did have a few coaches that likely affected my judgement.

[jacksfaninne]

Re: Refs

Thread reminded me about this podcast with Omaha-based NCAA basketball ref John Higgins. He worked a lot of games in the old NCC and specifically mentions State-U games as some of the craziest atmospheres he's officiated. Here's the summary:

John Higgins, a renowned college basketball official from Nebraska, discusses developing thick skin in a big Omaha family, picking up a whistle for the first time, changes to the sport over 30 years, increased criticism in the social media age, his favorite college venues and more.

FYI, if you like podcasts, Where I Come From, is one of my favorites.

[GopherHole]

Re: Refs

Thanks for sharing jacksfaninne! Love the license plate too.

[Grizzled_Jack]

Re: Refs

Couple of points referencing earlier posts:

Katie Falco was shocked that she ran into the same ref doing a D1 game in Brookings and a high school game in a small Iowa town. Don't think this is normal by any means.

He assigns officials, no mention that the home school got a choice in who was officiating. He does go over videos of officiating at length. I went to a game at Western Illinois about six years ago and sat next to someone who had cameras and equipment spread out all around him who told me that he was grading officials for the Summit. Pollard knew nothing about this, usually there are other ways to get video on the game rather than camping out with a bunch of stuff spread around. Maybe Macomb is some kind of a techno cold spot and they had to do it that way???? Asked him if he'd heard rumors (on D2 board) that Western might be dropping down to the GLVC given money and enrollment troubles. Said that if that happened he might have trouble getting officials up there because it was isolated and the physical plant was unpleasant. What's that tell you about WIU? Actually hope they stay in the Summit because it's my shortest drive, although 300 fans at the last game I attended there isn't exactly uplifting.

Speaker was ex-cop and said he still had bullet proof vest that might come in handy. Stated that given rising crowd nastiness that it's just a matter of time before an official gets shot on the floor.

Posted this once about six or seven years ago but my all time great high school ref story involves Knowles Trippler (checked him out, he was about the first ref admitted to the SD Sports Hall of Fame)-- he was doing a seventh place Pony Hills Conference game about 1962 between Carthage and Lane, which had to have been two of the worst high school programs in the state at that time. A Carthage player grabbed the ball, ran up the bleachers, ran the length of the floor on the top bleacher, came down and made the basket. Trippler didn't blow his whistle, came over to scorer's table and said "Let it stand, these people just want to go home."

Still can see him, whistle in one hand and holding his gut in the other. When I Googled him there was a story that as newspaper publisher he had the last Linotype in South Dakota but that he was selling out his printing business and going "high tech" by buying a fax machine. Early nineties. God, I miss small town (Canova) characters like that. Every town had 'em in those days. People used to give him crap when he officiated. I apologize for the treatment to you and your contemporaries, sir.

[98Jackfarmer]

Re: Refs

Thanks for the explanations and stories Grizzled Jack!

[Nidaros]

Re: Refs

Home team pays,that explains to some extent some of the "benefit of the doubt calls", I don't mind some of those, it's to be expected somewhat, but if it gets to be too many, it starts to affect the game, and does unfairly put a greater burden on the visitor to win. Also, the money scale is not equal, the p5's having more money pay more, but also probably get more "benefit of the doubt" calls too. You know how it goes...."anytime there's money involved". It is what it is, and for the most part reffing is about as fair to both contestants (teams) as can be I 'd guess. Most games are reffed fairly to both teams despite these other "minor" influences.

My hats off to these guys and gals who have a job where 1/2 (if equal attendence) people in the stands think you did a great job, and the other 1/2 not so much. They must enjoy the games that one side is heavily favored, unless the other team is "oh so close" to pulling off a huge upset, that could be a little more stressful for them.

Never did get an explanation for the call and long review for the Syracuse game (NCAA wbb 2nd rd) where the Syracuse player flew out of bounds and deflected the ball toward Myah Sellends legs, but it hit the floor still out of bounds first, before it hit her legs. Did anyone ever hear the reason for the call? It came at a crucial point late in the game, and the commentators were quite addiment the ball was going to be ours, but it wasn't. It all ended well , the game, but , like I said, never did hear the reason the possession was given to Syracuse.... if anyone knows why, i'd greatly appreciate if you could share the reason the call and review was determined the way it was, just for curiosities sake.

Ancient story time: Grizzled Jack may recall of what I am speaking. Before the NCC had a full time Commissioner and staff, the NCC members not only had to pay the refs but also got to select them. Back in the Barn for packed SDSU games, SDSU seemed to consistently select a balding middle aged guy named Eddie Livingston and the math professor from USD, Howard Connors. Howard apparently enjoyed is drive to Brookings and had no trouble recalling who paid his fee on the way out of the door. Back in those days the refs were always introduced after the starting fives. Eddie who was somewhat dramatic when making calls often drew a round of boos from the fans, and he would in turn bow to the crowd he loved to stir up. It was really funny. Did they favor the home team? Yes pretty much. I do recall the UNI coach who proceeded Norn Stewart, doing a dance in front of his bench when the calls did not go his way. The name I don't recall, but he looked kind retirement age, and the calls in Brookings probably pushed him along. I recall reading Vern Schoolmeester's master thesis in which he interviewed Coach Iverson who also mentioned the home team hiring refs and he also complained in the Brookings Register about a game in St. Cloud that they narrowly lost and they did not get the calls they needed to win.
If you look at the game results of USD-SDSU in the 1950's and 1960's, USD pretty much won in Vermillion and lost in Brookings. I think there were two exceptions 1958 and 1963, where both teams were national champions. Both teams were very good and won on the road, despite the homecooking refereeing.

[Grizzled_Jack]

Re: Refs

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...394853895&mt=2

I'm reposting Jacksfaninne's link. Great podcast. Same war stories I got at the meeting but a lot more of 'em. WELL WORTH LISTENING TO (Yes I'm screaming it.) Thanks for posting this!

[jacksfaninne]

Re: Refs

You're welcome!

Too bad Dirk hasn't put out anything new recently. And I don't know why some of my favorite episodes aren't showing up for me, but if these do for you, I highly recommend:
John Cook, Nebraska's great volleyball coach -- interesting thoughts on the entitlement attitudes of many of today's college athletes, how he got into volleyball coaching, how he nearly died
Trev Alberts, current UNO athletic director -- growing up on a farm, the recruiting process and his days at ESPN

Of the ones that are up, I really liked Charlie McBride, Kyle Peterson, Terry Pettit, Darin Erstad. You don't necessarily need ties to Nebraska to enjoy these ... lots of great stories. Dirk Chatelain is great interviewer/writer.

[GopherHole]

Re: Refs

Love the episode with John Higgins! I’ve had the chance to officiate with his brother Tim. Very polished and easy going while working a game. Never saw him play, but Tim was an excellent basketball player. Drafted by the Warriors out of college.