Conferences changes

[Grizzled_Jack]

Re: More Conferences changes today

I attended some Lindenwood games last year and the facilities and student turnout are both superior to UMKC (and at least the games I attended WIU--drove around that place for twenty minutes and no students could tell me where the field house was. Biggest problem with Lindenwood would be a place for football, also they are a pretty good match for the MIAA--noticed a fair amount of UCM alumni at their game.

UMSL doesn't have a bad field house and could probably make the transition as easy as SIUE. Like Edwardsville, they'd be totally ignored by the St. Louis media, even more than UMKC. Maybe their new coaching change indicates some interest in a change to D1. Think LU has better student turnout than UMSL. Lots of dorms.

I belong to the same civic/service club as the Lindenwood president. Next time he attends a meeting I'll ask him if there's any move up interest. Also their SID is a Facebook friend.

I'd love to see a Summit presence in St. Louis. Thought SIUE was a better match for the Summit than the Ohio Valley. They'd really match up with Western.

[Chains]

Re: More Conferences changes today

U New Orleans is on its way to the Southland... Lindenwood would have a fellow private school member in Denver, which of similar size and also religiously affiliated. They are transitioning from NAIA, but should be made a full D-II member this summer. So they could be apply for D-1 transition as early as next year.

I agree that Mankato should be high on the Summit’s invitee list. If so I don’t think that U Minnesota will have much influence on a Minnesota State system school moving up. There could be some behind the scene efforts, but the two systems are independent enough to not make much difference. And as you said there is competition among schools, and the Minnesota State system could use a headliner. As such I think the biggest external problem with Mankato moving up will be an internal struggle with St. Could. This could be a wedded pair… Difficult one with the scholarship costs related to football.

I do not understand all of the politics within the state of MN as it relates to NCAA D1 schools! Where does St. Cloud ST stand in all of this? A couple of years ago there was an attempt to drop football. It survived somehow. If SCSU dropped football they would be in my opinion a good fit for the summit. I am sure someone will beat me up on this one! Interested in other thoughts involving SCSU?

GBGBGJ

[zooropa]

Re: More Conferences changes today

U New Orleans is on its way to the Southland... Lindenwood would have a fellow private school member in Denver, which of similar size and also religiously affiliated. They are transitioning from NAIA, but should be made a full D-II member this summer. So they could be apply for D-1 transition as early as next year.

I agree that Mankato should be high on the Summit’s invitee list. If so I don’t think that U Minnesota will have much influence on a Minnesota State system school moving up. There could be some behind the scene efforts, but the two systems are independent enough to not make much difference. And as you said there is competition among schools, and the Minnesota State system could use a headliner. As such I think the biggest external problem with Mankato moving up will be an internal struggle with St. Could. This could be a wedded pair… Difficult one with the scholarship costs related to football.

I'd like Denver to be a long-term member of the Summit, but I'm not sure that Denver sees things that way. I mean, working in favor of keeping them in the Summit is their limited range of typical conference sports and the limited number of conference options, but I wonder if Denver's view of the Summit is that of a placeholder conference. I'd like to think that being in a conference with flagship universities--even if they're small ones--adds a bit of luster to the Summit that wasn't there with the Sun Belt.

Regarding Mankato vs.St. Cloud State, I'd make a few observations:

St. Cloud State didn't have enough money to fund football a couple years ago. I can't remember how they kept it going.

Also, Mankato State only drew 6472 for their homecoming game last year. I don't think they could do much worse if they went non-scholly and joined the Pioneer League. They'd be competing for an FCS tournament bid every year, and would shave, oh, shoot, $700k or so off the cost of running the football program.

[Prairiehaas]

Re: More Conferences changes today

St Cloud State student body approved an increase in activity fees to save the FB program.

I have relatives that are MSUM alums. The chatter is they would like to see a move up. But, they also look down on the Dakota schools. Hard to figure that out.

[filbert]

Re: More Conferences changes today

St Cloud State student body approved an increase in activity fees to save the FB program.

I have relatives that are MSUM alums. The chatter is they would like to see a move up. But, they also look down on the Dakota schools. Hard to figure that out.

It's that "D" word you used, just there. Nothing more.

[Prairiehaas]

Re: More Conferences changes today

Yes I know. See that attitude even here in the Dakotas. Thankfully the administration at State, rightfully, takes no stock in that attitude.

Options for the conference look thin at this time. That will change. Just need to be positioned to take advantage of the next opportunity.

[zooropa]

Re: More Conferences changes today

It's that "D" word you used, just there. Nothing more.

I've got a very good friend who's also on the MSUM board of trustees. He definitely does not have a bad attitude about the Dakotas--except that he valued his time at Mankato because of its proximity to the Cities.

[cokolman]

Re: More Conferences changes today

I'd like Denver to be a long-term member of the Summit, but I'm not sure that Denver sees things that way. I mean, working in favor of keeping them in the Summit is their limited range of typical conference sports and the limited number of conference options, but I wonder if Denver's view of the Summit is that of a placeholder conference. I'd like to think that being in a conference with flagship universities--even if they're small ones--adds a bit of luster to the Summit that wasn't there with the Sun Belt.

Let be honest... None of the Dakota schools would pass up an offer to the Valley, and yet it appears that is exactly what Denver did. They were apparently approached by the Valley, but were informed that they would need to add sports and/or a travel subsidy. At that point Denver said thanks, but no thanks... Loyola apparently has committed another $3 mil in athletic expenses, from $12 mil to $15 mil per year, as part of their Valley agreement. Denver doesn't have that kind of resources and has a distinctly different vision of its athletics: hockey and lacrosse are their priorities. They are only now starting to put resources to basketball to assure their value and conference secruity. Don't forget they spent 13 yrs as a member of the Sun Belt... The single year in the WAC is inconsistent with their character. Now its possible that Denver might compromise for a WCC or MWC, but an invite to those conferences don't appear likely. To say that makes the Summit a placeholder to Denver for those reasons is like saying the Summit is a placeholder for NDSU before they move to the MAC.

[cokolman]

Re: More Conferences changes today

I do not understand all of the politics within the state of MN as it relates to NCAA D1 schools! Where does St. Cloud ST stand in all of this? A couple of years ago there was an attempt to drop football. It survived somehow. If SCSU dropped football they would be in my opinion a good fit for the summit. I am sure someone will beat me up on this one! Interested in other thoughts involving SCSU?

My understanding is that the Minnesota State System was created to increase coordination among the designated non-research schools in the state. To act as a counter balance to the U Minnesota system power at the state and federal level. Also my understanding the U Minnesota system wasn't opposed as long as there was an agreement that the State System had a distinctly different charter (key being academic research). Not sure how much the athletics were involved in that discussion, but my understanding of the politics is that there won't be much opposition. The opposition that will occur will be inside between St. Cloud and Mankato... When the State System was created they wanted all of the 4-yr schools to take on the Minnesota State name, but St. Could was bitterly opposed and got that overruled. St. Cloud I don't believe would allow Mankato to move up as "Minnesota State" as it would threaten the balance between the two largest schools in the system. As such I think they are a 2-for-1 deal... Which increases the costs to the State System and thus the complications. Now if they dropped football that might make it easier, but both schools would be taking on a UNO like backlash. Pioneer football might be an option, but the travel costs are much larger and the makeup isn't a good fit. Pioneer football was created so all the small D-1 private schools could continue to play football at a D-III commitment (most used to play D-III until "playing down" was outlawed).

Outside of the Minnesota schools and Lindenwood the only other D-II option appears to be U Missouri - St Louis... On that I'm not clear how ready and willing they are to join UMKC at D-1.

[da_coach]

Re: More Conferences changes today

Any thoughts on this? And keep in mind... I'm just letting my mind wander here.

The MVC has 10 teams with Creighton leaving, but Loyola joining.
The Summit has 8 teams with UMKC and Oakland leaving (and Denver arriving).

How about building a Mid-Major "Super Conference" with 16 to 18 teams?

The conferences are already linked via Football in the MVFC, with 4 teams from the Summit, and 5 from MVC.

You could even keep the "Divisions" seperate Have the "Summit" and the "Valley" (like Leaders and Legends). Or you could easily do an East and West divisions, if you wanted to go that way.

It would not affect Travel for SDSU or NDSU...as we already travel to Indiana State (farthest East) and Mo. State (farthest South) for Football.

Denver and NDSU would be the biggest "reach" for travel for the MVC members.

This would ensure the survival of the conference for a long, long, time. It would make winning the conference tournament in Basketball much more difficult, but increase the chances of gaining "at large" bids.

NDSU's success in Football, and SDSU's succes by making the playoffs in the "big 3 sports" will make them the "attractive" partners of the deal.

It would save baseball too.

Now, I know this would never happen, as the Valley membership considers themselves to be "above" the Summit. But personally, I really like the idea.

I know...I'm a dreamer. Back to reality.

[Prairiehaas]

Re: More Conferences changes today

Loss of AQ would make that undesirable.

[Nidaros]

Re: More Conferences changes today

Loss of AQ would make that undesirable.

I would agree. I think we just need to be patient and see what happens. Change for a good reason is good, but change based on fear and anxiety usually results in a worse situation. Losing the AQ would do that, especially for men BB.

[zooropa]

Re: More Conferences changes today

Let be honest... None of the Dakota schools would pass up an offer to the Valley

No offer is likely to be forthcoming. By going for Loyola in Chicago, and scheduling a visit with UMKC (of all places), it's pretty clear that the MVC wants a major media market, and are willing to take a program of substantially lower caliber than SDSU in order to get it.

That's why I say that the Dakotas--with their 124 year history of athletic competition--are a bit more tightly bound to each other than Denver is to them. Denver had the choice of going to the Valley; The Dakota schools seem unlikely to have that option. It's as much a matter of making sense as a unit and not making sense separately. They're too close to each other and too far from everything else.

Granted, Denver has chosen the Summit, which is good. Granted also that travel for any conference other than the Summit is likely to be as bad or possibly worse, even if the prestige is higher. Still, Denver had a choice. The Dakota schools really don't.

Also, I wonder if SCSU can keep Mankato from going D-1. Without knowing the specifics of the governing board, it would seem difficult to imagine that one university could veto actions at another. They could kick up a fuss, make noise, talk loudly about how foolish it all is, but in the end, they'd have to watch Mankato go D-1: This is, after all, what happened with USD & UND.

And if the only option is that *both* go D-1, it would be much better for SDSU if *neither* go D-1. The Dakotas/Minnesota do not need SEVEN D-1 schools. What are we? Utah?

[cokolman]

Re: More Conferences changes today

Just trying to reinforce my belief that Denver seems content to play the Summit for the foreseeable future. But I'll agree DU has more options than the Dakota schools, but not much more considering DU's athletic priorities.

Being that St Cloud and Mankato are in the same system one could make things difficult for another if they wanted. As for too many D-1 schools in Dakota & Minnesota... One can only compare to other states with similar populations. If one thinks regionally I can see what you mean... Minnesota alone is similar in population to Wisconsin and Colorado which have four D-1 schools each (3 public and 1 private), while Minnesota only has a D-1 single school. But the combined Minnesota/Dakota population is similar Washington which has the same number of 5 D-1 schools (3 public and 2 private in Washington's case). While if one adds Iowa and Nebraska as a region the population is similar to Ohio which has 13 (11 public and 2 private) D-1 schools, while the upper midwest region has 12 (10 public and 2 private).

[filbert]

Re: More Conferences changes today

I changed the thread name---removing "today" as that was no longer accurate. Most days, anyway.