NCC is gone

[mango4]

Re: NCC is gone

So, it's up to some guy with numerous other tasks assigned to him to select a centerpiece? A centerpiece that is then reviewed by one other guy?

Gee. That's so much better than assigning someone to do some research and produce a set of possible options.

No the person designing the page doesn't have numerous other tasks assigned to him, the guy working the desk that night usually isn't covering anything else, that's why he's working the desk. They have copy editors that help lay out the page and proof, that's their job.. Klinski is one of the copy editors at the Argus, he barely ever writes a story. Unless you've worked at a paper, and it's obvious you haven't, you don't understand this. I didn't until I started working at the Register less than 6 months ago and I'm still learning and will continue to do so as my time as the sports editor at the Collegian. I don't have the same knowledge as JJ because he has been in the business a lot longer than I have, but I understand the basics.

[zooropa]

Re: NCC is gone

Since this was a section front, it was put together by the sports staff. Whoever was on the desk in the sports area (most of them, other than TV, work the desk at one time or another) put that page together. And again, they don't just grab something and throw it in. When you're paying to print something in color 75,000 times, you don't just settle for whatever art you can find.

But some editor is specifically picking a photo for the front and designing a page around it. Then, another editor will take a look at the layout to make sure it's good, and correct, and worthy of a Sunday front.

So, something that is going to be printed in color 75,000 times is picked out by one guy (based on however much time he wants to put into searching for a good photo) and approved by some other guy?

Wow. No wonder newspapers are generally so ugly, and the Argus Leader in particular.

Thanks for the education you two.

Next time I see an ugly Argus Leader layout (and I know I won't have to wait long), I'll know that it was perpetrated by the 'guy working the desk that night', and that none of the blame for it rests with any of the drones on the staff.

[mango4]

Re: NCC is gone

So, something that is going to be printed in color 75,000 times is picked out by one guy (based on however much time he wants to put into searching for a good photo) and approved by some other guy?

Wow. No wonder newspapers are generally so ugly, and the Argus Leader in particular.

Thanks for the education you two.

Next time I see an ugly Argus Leader layout (and I know I won't have to wait long), I'll know that it was perpetrated by the 'guy working the desk that night', and that none of the blame for it rests with any of the drones on the staff.

I'm not going to argue with you about this anymore, you don't get it, you haven't worked for a paper so things don't make sense to you

[filbert]

Re: NCC is gone

I stumbled across this in my morning blog-reading (and to think, I used to read a newspaper every morning). It's by Deborah Howell, the ombudsman for the Washington Post, who's stepping down:
(link via Powerline blog)

Journalists are highly trained, mobile and, especially in Washington, more elite [than the journalists of her early days in the profession]. We make a lot more money, drive better cars and have nicer homes. Some of us think we're just a little more special than some of the folks we want to buy the paper or read us online. . . . An unpleasant fact about journalists is that we can be way too defensive. We dish it out a lot better than we take it. It's not that we have thin skin; we often act as though we have no skin and bleed at the slightest touch.
. . .
The worst part of my job as official internal critic hasn't been dealing with readers, though that has been both daunting and rewarding. Taking those complaints to reporters and editors has been the biggest challenge. . . .Some journalists think I have been unfair to them. If I have, then they know how people who believe The Post has treated them unfairly feel.

Link to original WaPo article.

Another quote from the article, which I think applies directly to the controversy at hand:

Journalists need to find ways to be more a part of their communities and their interests -- without crossing the line to partisanship -- and to engage with readers in improving the newspaper and its Web site to be sources readers can't do without. If something drives readers nuts, what can we do to help them?

Of course the partisanship she's referring to is political, but nowadays there's really not much emotional difference between political partisanship and sports partisanship, is there? (Apologies for drifting ever so slightly into political talk.)

I thought it was appropriate in this thread, considering the thread drift into newspaper layout technique and philosophy . . .

[JimmyJack]

Re: NCC is gone

As I said earlier in the thread, it was a bad choice. The photo really isn't very illustrative of the story (the NCC ended THIS year... and the photo is five years old) plus it shows a tone-deafness on the part of the sports staff. There is a time to stir the pot, and there is a time to celebrate the NCC. This was a time for a photo that celebrated the NCC without including mean-spirited t-shirts or reminding us that USD students crapped all over the visiting showers during that game.

Why not select an image of athletic competition to illustrate the end of the NCC, rather than an image illustrating hateful behavior? That image might make Coyote fans happy, but it clearly doesn't represent what SDSU fans I talk to are looking for in a rivalry.

By the way, the quote from Filbert refers to what I said before about unintended meanings. People process things differently. Most SDSU fans would process that image as an affront. Whoever chose it may have thought, from their perspective, that it simply showed a spirited rivalry. That's where somebody with an SDSU education (or at least an affinity for SDSU) on the sports desk might have been helpful.

[jackmd]

Re: NCC is gone

Unfortunate choice but not unexpected. The Argus trailer has no local competition and that has lead to a less than mediocre waste of time and money on my doorstep every day. I resigned myself to accepting that some years ago.

[yoteforever]

Re: NCC is gone

What's interesting to me about the choice of the death of the NCC as the "top sports story" for the year is that it really reflects only the USD perspective. No SDSU fans (and there seem to be a lot more of us if you go by the Argus' recommendation numbers) are sitting around pining over the end of the NCC. Augie fans are, from what I hear from them, ecstatic with the NSIC. And I suspect that if there are a few USD fans feeling nostalgic about the NCC, that will end as they get further into transition. So who thinks this is the biggest sports story of the year? Somebody on the Argus sports staff does (note Mick didn't write the story). And that's about it.

And that photo... is it any wonder we don't miss that stupid stuff? "Hate State"? Whatever.

I would like to say that the vast majority of the USD fans wouldn't have approved that picture either. Certainly there could have been a picture better representin g the story line. I have read with interest your replies to this in this thread, and I have to tell you, some make alot of sense, and others don't.

Hate State? That was a saying from as far back as I can remember. As one side of the stadium blasted out HATE STATE, while they took their breath, the other side blasted out SCREW THE U. That goes with rivalries. The other thing that gets my immediate attention is that a vast majority of you reprimand the Argus, and go as far as talking about cancelling the subscription to the paper. If you sit on the USD side of things over the last 5 years, that statement alone makes me howl with laughter. The Argus has been severely predispositioned in favor of SDSU in terms of coverage. Nothing could be better for us if you would "rally" against the Argus, so that we in turn could have equal or greater coverage than you.

HATE STATE shirts don't bother me anymore than SCREW THE U, but the one in which your AD was admonished was tasteless and out of bounds. In fairness though to some of your posters that have condemned that shirt, it is at least factual.

All in all, the USD supporters are coming around to the theory of not playing you either, and that's fine by me. Personally, it is pride and arrogance that keeps it from happening, and no matter what sort of twist you put to it, anyone that doesn't believe it would be a big revenue game and fan interest game knows absolutely nothing about college rivalries. I could care less if we play you or not. But to think it won't happen someday soon, you are naive.

In closing, the Argus could have and should have chosen a better picture. We agree with you. We aren't sticking out our chest or laughing about the photo, we would have preferred something different ourselves, but guess what........It didn't happen.

Congrats on your win at Iowa State the other night, I was there, and you deserved it.

[JimmyJack]

Re: NCC is gone

I would like to say that the vast majority of the USD fans wouldn't have approved that picture either. Certainly there could have been a picture better representin g the story line. I have read with interest your replies to this in this thread, and I have to tell you, some make alot of sense, and others don't.

Hate State? That was a saying from as far back as I can remember. As one side of the stadium blasted out HATE STATE, while they took their breath, the other side blasted out SCREW THE U. That goes with rivalries.

I am aware that Screw the U goes with Hate State. I'm certain I can remember a lot farther back than you can. And I don't condone one versus the other. They're both stupid things to say.

You say that's just a rivalry. Well, rivalries don't have to be hateful to be good. The biggest crowds ever to see football games in ND and SD? SDSU vs. NDSU in both cases. That's a good rivalry. No "hate" or "screw" just a bunch of people cheering for their teams.

[jackmd]

Re: NCC is gone

I
HATE STATE shirts don't bother me anymore than SCREW THE U, but the one in which your AD was admonished was tasteless and out of bounds. In fairness though to some of your posters that have condemned that shirt, it is at least factual.

All in all, the USD supporters are coming around to the theory of not playing you either, and that's fine by me. Personally, it is pride and arrogance that keeps it from happening, and no matter what sort of twist you put to it, anyone that doesn't believe it would be a big revenue game and fan interest game knows absolutely nothing about college rivalries. I could care less if we play you or not. But to think it won't happen someday soon, you are naive.

The shirts referring to Dr. Oien were inappropriate regardless, tasteless and unfortunate, but again not unexpected.

Playing USD again is a matter of pride for us as a result of the arrogance of those at the U. So, I guess you got that part right. You are missing the point about the rest exactly for the reasons you listed in your post. No amount of revenue is worth it to subject our student athletes to the atmosphere encouraged at the Udot. That is a matter of pride, we don't need the game and I hope we don't schedule it.

[yoteforever]

Re: NCC is gone

I am aware that Screw the U goes with Hate State. I'm certain I can remember a lot farther back than you can. And I don't condone one versus the other. They're both stupid things to say.

You say that's just a rivalry. Well, rivalries don't have to be hateful to be good. The biggest crowds ever to see football games in ND and SD? SDSU vs. NDSU in both cases. That's a good rivalry. No "hate" or "screw" just a bunch of people cheering for their teams.

I happen to agree with you. They don't have to be hateful to be rivals. Regarding the arrogance, rest assured, it is on both sides of the fence. Just look at some of the most recent posts? A bake sale in Vermillion?

Then another poster says they aren't willing to subject themselves to behavior encouraged at Udot? Give me a break. When I walked into your football stadium a n umber of years ago, we had to be escorted in by Highway Patrol people, and even at that, I was hit with a frozen Coyote thrown from the stands. I din't whine about it like a baby, we spoke on the field. So please, in no way, try and seperate poor behavior as happening at only one location. I am tickled to death you and North Dakota State have this "cozy, kissy kissy" rivalry. But if you go to their website fan board, they don't view you anymore of a rivalry as they do Mayville State.

If you are going to post, at least be objective. Good God, if you think your students don't have the same charecteristics as Udot, or Iowa State, or any other college, it has been awhile since you have put a kid through college. I said to you the shirts about your AD were in bad taste. But if you think for one second had the shoe been on the other foot, and your students would have encouraged our AD to submit to Christian counseling as opposed to something like those terrible Udot students did, man, are you off base.

[jackmd]

Re: NCC is gone

I happen to agree with you. They don't have to be hateful to be rivals. Regarding the arrogance, rest assured, it is on both sides of the fence. Just look at some of the most recent posts? A bake sale in Vermillion?

Then another poster says they aren't willing to subject themselves to behavior encouraged at Udot? Give me a break. When I walked into your football stadium a n umber of years ago, we had to be escorted in by Highway Patrol people, and even at that, I was hit with a frozen Coyote thrown from the stands. I din't whine about it like a baby, we spoke on the field. So please, in no way, try and seperate poor behavior as happening at only one location. I am tickled to death you and North Dakota State have this "cozy, kissy kissy" rivalry. But if you go to their website fan board, they don't view you anymore of a rivalry as they do Mayville State.

If you are going to post, at least be objective. Good God, if you think your students don't have the same charecteristics as Udot, or Iowa State, or any other college, it has been awhile since you have put a kid through college. I said to you the shirts about your AD were in bad taste. But if you think for one second had the shoe been on the other foot, and your students would have encouraged our AD to submit to Christian counseling as opposed to something like those terrible Udot students did, man, are you off base.

The crap that happens to us in Vermillion is much worse than anywhere else we play. I know that, former athletes at SDSU know that and you know that. Talk to the guys who went into Vermillion and kicked your butts plenty of times and they will tell you that they don't ever care to see SDSU return to play there. If it has to happen if better not until things improve dramatically. You'll never hear that being said about Frost or CAS, never.

As for your experience at CAS, it better never happen again and if it does it better be taken care of swiftly and appropriately.

[yoteforever]

Re: NCC is gone

The shirts referring to Dr. Oien were inappropriate regardless, tasteless and unfortunate, but again not unexpected.

Playing USD again is a matter of pride for us as a result of the arrogance of those at the U. So, I guess you got that part right. You are missing the point about the rest exactly for the reasons you listed in your post. No amount of revenue is worth it to subject our student athletes to the atmosphere encouraged at the Udot. That is a matter of pride, we don't need the game and I hope we don't schedule it.

Give me a break. Your pride is evident. It is also without merit. I understand being PROUD of your school, but this "unbridled pride" and arrogance is without merit. You act as if SDSU has won national title after national title. You act as if you are inches from being a big time player on the national scene. You are absolutely no differnet than USD in any way. You are a struggling program trying to gain toehold and be recognized nationally, or at minimum regionally.

If your womens program hadn't cracked the top 25 (and I commend them for doing so), no one outside of the 5 state area would know anymore about you know than they did 5 years ago. You went D-I first...period. I give you that. Now what? Look at your crowds at basketball games and tell me you don't need to spark some "games of interest". So does USD. 200-300 people at either venue watching a game is ridiculous.

Please don't talk to me about SDSU be so righteous, and the fans of USD so arrogant. That makes me puke. Both sides have their issues and problem fans. But both sides represent something truely good about our great state of South Dakota.

[JimmyJack]

Re: NCC is gone

I happen to agree with you. They don't have to be hateful to be rivals. Regarding the arrogance, rest assured, it is on both sides of the fence. Just look at some of the most recent posts? A bake sale in Vermillion?

Then another poster says they aren't willing to subject themselves to behavior encouraged at Udot? Give me a break. When I walked into your football stadium a n umber of years ago, we had to be escorted in by Highway Patrol people, and even at that, I was hit with a frozen Coyote thrown from the stands. I din't whine about it like a baby, we spoke on the field. So please, in no way, try and seperate poor behavior as happening at only one location. I am tickled to death you and North Dakota State have this "cozy, kissy kissy" rivalry. But if you go to their website fan board, they don't view you anymore of a rivalry as they do Mayville State.

If you are going to post, at least be objective. Good God, if you think your students don't have the same charecteristics as Udot, or Iowa State, or any other college, it has been awhile since you have put a kid through college. I said to you the shirts about your AD were in bad taste. But if you think for one second had the shoe been on the other foot, and your students would have encouraged our AD to submit to Christian counseling as opposed to something like those terrible Udot students did, man, are you off base.

You're wrong about NDSU, of course. We do go to their board. There are probably five times more SDSU members at Bisonville than there are USD members at your discussion board.

Regarding your treatment at SDSU: Did anybody crap in your team's showers? Nope. USD officially wins for most tasteless and unacceptable thing done in the name of the USD/SDSU rivalry. It's no contest. Congratulations!

[yoteforever]

Re: NCC is gone

The crap that happens to us in Vermillion is much worse than anywhere else we play. I know that, former athletes at SDSU know that and you know that. Talk to the guys who went into Vermillion and kicked your butts plenty of times and they will tell you that they don't ever care to see SDSU return to play there. If it has to happen if better not until things improve dramatically. You'll never hear that being said about Frost or CAS, never.

As for your experience at CAS, it better never happen again and if it does it better be taken care of swiftly and appropriately.

Are you joking? Getting hit with a frozen Coyote is minor to what happens to you when you go to Vermillion? Site me an example, and I am sure there are many. But were you totally blind when USD hit the field or hardwood at SDSU. Do you perhaps remember the USD cheerleader hit over the head with a dead coyote and have to go by ambulance to the hospital? Don't give me that pious crap about USD is so bad, and everything done in Brookings is done after only close consultation with the ministers of the area.

I don't think that kind of behavior is good or acceptable anywhere. But please refrain yourself from making it sound like it is a one way street. The biggest step a drunk makes into curing himself is admitting they are a drunk. I admit the behavior at USD at times has been over the edge, but if you can't admit the same in Brookings, you are either blind , deaf, or ignorant of the situation.

[yoteforever]

Re: NCC is gone

You're wrong about NDSU, of course. We do go to their board. There are probably five times more SDSU members at Bisonville than there are USD members at your discussion board.

Regarding your treatment at SDSU: Did anybody crap in your team's showers? Nope. USD officially wins for most tasteless and unacceptable thing done in the name of the USD/SDSU rivalry. It's no contest. Congratulations!

I do go to Bisonville and watch. You are wrong. They don't regard you as anything other than a conference rival. The truth is, they are more of a player on the national scene than you ever hope to be. They have beaten a BCS team in football. They have beaten a ranked D-I team in basketball on the floor of the ranked team.

Regarding taking a crap in the showers at USD, I have never heard that. If it happened, then it was tatsteless. But to throw a dead coyote and "knock out" a cheerleader and say that is minor in comparison? Yeah right