Education Bill in SD Legislature

[jackmd]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

[quote author=Haldersham link=1169407608/0#13 date=1169483178]This is an area I dont know much about, but if the county asseses you and you pay your bill does not that money stay with the local district? I suspect that is not sufficent to operate on and each district then must receive so much a pupil from the legislature appropriated funds. I think some of our more urban people can be a bit unsensitive when they bring up the waste spent in keeping  smaller districts operating. In fairness, they should experience the life in that smaller district before they speak. They might see why its important to keep a school going.

Each local government entity assesses a portion of the property tax bill. You get one bill, and it's split up and distributed to county, city (or other locality), and school. The state pumps additional money into school districts based on a complex formula that includes the previously mentioned $847 per pupil addition for small districts.

I'm well aware that the main reason people in small towns want to maintain their school is to preserve a local identity. Take away Burke's school and combine it with two or three others, and Burke loses much of its identity. There are travel issues as well, but I'm sure culturally it's difficult for a small community to "lose" a school. Do students really benefit from a tiny school district? I think that from what I've seen, the disadvantages outweight the advantages.

I'm no "big city" person. There were 200 people in my graduating class. By most standards, that's a pretty small school.

[/quote]

I graduated with 34 people in a consolidated school comprising 4 communities. My opportunities were still limited even in a consolidated school district. My hometown gave up its elementary school about 8 years ago. No harm to the community. Its a little different for a town to lose its high school but I think the time has come to move consolidation forward. Just one man's opinion.

[Haldersham]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

[quote author=Haldersham link=1169407608/0#11 date=1169481600][quote author=AZjack link=1169407608/0#7 date=1169449073]You guys from east river have to remember how far apart the schools in west river are already spread out.  I don't have time right now to delve into this, but there are some other sides to this issue to think about.

In the bill is an exception for sparse districts, which have few students, but have large area districts. There are a number of definitions that have not been defined.  When they say 200 students is that an actual count on a given day, is it Average Daily Membership ADM which is a measure currently used? These questions are not answered according to my weekly The Arlington Sun. In this article, editor Frank Crisler says Arlington, Sioux Valley, Desmet and Hamlin seem to measure up and will probably benefit from this law. Schools like Oldham-Ramona and Willow Lake appear to be in trouble and will have to fight for their existence. Lake Preston, the town that produced the NDSU line man Buckendahl is very close to being less than 200 and they could be in trouble. Lake Preston is located between Desmet and Arlington and probably could consolidate with either if push comes to shove.

There are  many questions to be answered and the legislature is going to have to decide whether it should advance. This bill came from a two year study of school districts of a task force appointed by the governor. The task force made no recommendations, but certain lawmakers where part of the task force and they more or less came up with the bill on their own.[/quote]

The lineman for NDSU that graduated from Lake Preston was Justin Buckwalter.  Just for clarity's sake.  [/quote]

Thanks. I could not recall the name.

[Go_Herd]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

I look at the problem this way.

I graduated from Milbank, SD in 2004.  There are multiple schools within a 20 mile circle of Milbank (south shore, grant deuel, waverly)  All are small schools I don't know if it is less than 200 but its in the ballpark of there I am pretty sure.  In Milbank I was able to take pre-calculus, calculus, physics, advanced chem; these did not count towards college credit but were available.  Now going to NDSU and majoring in engineering I am so grateful for those classes because I was able to test out of some of the beginning math and physics classes when I got to NDSU.  

Now these small schools around Milbank can hardly offer a quality basic math courses dealing with algebra or trigonometry.  So I look at it this way.  Don't want to offend anyone with my opinoin but here it goes.  (as I am sure some of you are from small schools).

These smaller schools are hurting their students in their academic careers.  I am not saying this is the norm but here is the scenario.

Kid graduates from a small school and goes to a four year college.  Enters in and is immediatly overwhelmed by the course work due to improper teaching in their high school.  They become frustrated or have to enter into courses that are more remedial than the ones they should be taking (which more than likely demoralizes the student thus dropping out of college or they fail out).  They do three things.  1. stick it out in college fight through it and graduate.  2. go to a tech school (nothing wrong with it)  3.  think they cannot do well in higher education and get a job that is at their level of a high school graduate.

I feel that a % of these students that fall into #2 and #3 can be saved by going to a larger school that can properly teach them how to learn.  Its not even about taking high advanced classes, but just getting taught better by better teaches, thus learning the basic material better.  Granted there are students that do well from small schools in college, and there are students from larger schools that do not make it as well.

I just feel that a % of students in smaller schools can be saved from academic mediocrity by attending a larger school.

Comments?

[2006gwfcchamps]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

I doubt anyone would disagree that a larger district can offer more subjects and opportunities.

It obviously becomes a question of where do you draw the line between a small and large district.

[Go_Herd]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

I doubt anyone would disagree that a larger district can offer more subjects and opportunities.

It obviously becomes a question of where do you draw the line between a small and large district.

right thats the case, how about 1 school per county, obviously not down in the south east.

As far as the west, just leave them alone, they got enough problems with the schools they already got.

[Haldersham]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

Its been three years now since I retired, but I worked for USDA RUS, Rural Utilities Service, formerly REA. and we worked with Rural Development mission group. I will not try to explain the organization of USDA, but my purpose in mentioning is that there has been loan and grant money availabe for Distance Learning and Distance Medicine for many years. My job was to come after the project was completed and review the accounting records to assure the funds have been used properly. One task was to make a visit to the school to see that the equipement was in use. One project was located west of McCook Nebraska, and it linked several small schools together. When I visited the teacher was located in Imperial Neb which is larger school than the other small schools involved in this project, but what amazed me was these small group of students were learning spanish. Those students going to UNL were fully qualified in terms of curriculm, I was told by one administrator. It kind of rekindled my belief in small high schools.

In SD Former Gov Bill Janklow used prision help to wire every high school in South Dakota for computers and Distance Learning. Plus all the fed programs available in Nebraka are available in South Dakota. I do know some of these schools have taken advantage of grants and loans to acquire this equipment. I suspect some advance courses are available through distance learning. What probably has happen is that these programs have not be used, or if they have tried, they found out funds were not available. I think working together as a network might be better than closing a school. Plus I think state and fed can could fund the availablity in a more generous manner.

[JimmyJack]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

Its been three years now since I retired, but I worked for USDA RUS, Rural Utilities Service, formerly REA. and we worked with Rural Development mission group. I will not try to explain the organization of USDA, but my purpose in mentioning is that there has been loan and grant money availabe for Distance Learning and Distance Medicine for many years. My job was to come after the project was completed and review the accounting records to assure the funds have been used properly. One task was to make a visit to the school to see that the equipement was in use. One project was located west of McCook Nebraska, and it linked several small schools together. When I visited the teacher was located in Imperial Neb which is larger school than the other small schools involved in this project, but what amazed me was these small group of students were learning spanish. Those students going to UNL were fully qualified in terms of curriculm, I was told by one administrator. It kind of rekindled my belief in small high schools.

In SD Former Gov Bill Janklow used prision help to wire every high school in South Dakota for computers and Distance Learning. Plus all the fed programs available in Nebraka are available in South Dakota. I do know some of these schools have taken advantage of grants and loans to acquire this equipment. I suspect some advance courses are available through distance learning. What probably has happen is that these programs have not be used, or if they have tried, they found out funds were not available. I think working together as a network might be better than closing a school. Plus I think state and fed can could fund the availablity in a more generous manner.

Haldersham is right. There is money available for distance learning, and there are plenty of courses offered via DDN in South Dakota. That's a good program and I wish more people would take advantage of it. There is a DDN (Digital Dakota Network) receive room near almost everybody in the state. I know people who are working to bring more courses to very remote places like the reservations. DDN certainly works for some courses. But for highly intensive and interactive courses like calculus, it isn't a good solution.

[2006gwfcchamps]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

That seems like a "throw more money at it" approach rather than trying to figure out a real solution.


Why is it that in industry the key word is "efficiency" but in public education the key words seems to be "we need more money"?

[1stRowFANatic]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

2006
Actually the use of distance learning is to use less money. the cost of the one teacher is actually split between the districts that join together. More courses are offered to students and costs are split between districts.

Go Herd
Your appear to base your opinion on an assumption that may not be true. Why is it assumed that the larger school will have the better teacher? I have several high school classmates that became teachers, some in large schools and some in small schools. Two of those that choose to teach in small rural schools do so for ECONOMIC reasons. They have been offered positions at larger schools, but turned them down because they would have lost money. One example from about 6 years ago: Classmate was paying about $500/mo for a 4 year old six bedroom house with a huge yard, close to school parks, etc. Also was very close to the river and he loves hunting and fishing. Now I assume his taxes have gone up and he is paying more for the house now than before, but there is no way you get a 10 year old 6 bedroom house for triple that in Sioux Falls. My point is that you can't assume that you have a better teacher in a larger school, just that you have more teachers.

As for opportunities, that can also vary. When we lived in the Twin Cities, we found no public schools that offered orchestra at the middle school level, and only a couple private schools. Almost every district there is larger than Sioux Falls, but Sioux Falls has offered orchestra at the middle school level for years.

With all that said, I do believe that schools in eastern SD do need to consolidate. My wife went to Jones County in Murdo. In college, we tried to figure out the largest (enrollment) district we could create in eastern SD without including Sioux Falls. If I remember correctly we could, with rotating the district, get it to include Madison, Brookings, Watertown and close to Huron, with all the small schools in between. Of course that is not a realistic plan because transportation would be prohibitive, but my home town of Arlington now coops with Lake Preston, De Smet and Iroquis for wrestling. I think a high school in the center of Kingsbury county could serve all the students well, and the travel still would be far, far less than those districts out west.

[2006gwfcchamps]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

2006
Actually the use of distance learning is to use less money. the cost of the one teacher is actually split between the districts that join together. More courses are offered to students and costs are split between districts.

The exact same situation would happen if those district did consolidate.

Rather, instead of teaching via computer, the all the students on that network would actually be in that classroom.


So really, you'd also save money on not having the network costs.

[1stRowFANatic]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

Network costs are one time expenses (for the most part, some upkeep expenses), continued travel expenses of transporting a small number of students farther distances after consolidation are ongoing. Also networking costs are often not exclusive used for distance learning, so some of the cost should not be attributed to distance learning if the system is used for other things.

[2006gwfcchamps]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

I think it would be up to the district to decide if they could afford the increase in transportation costs.

[Go_Herd]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

2006
Actually the use of distance learning is to use less money. the cost of the one teacher is actually split between the districts that join together. More courses are offered to students and costs are split between districts.

Go Herd
Your appear to base your opinion on an assumption that may not be true. Why is it assumed that the larger school will have the better teacher? I have several high school classmates that became teachers, some in large schools and some in small schools. Two of those that choose to teach in small rural schools do so for ECONOMIC reasons. They have been offered positions at larger schools, but turned them down because they would have lost money. One example from about 6 years ago: Classmate was paying about $500/mo for a 4 year old six bedroom house with a huge yard, close to school parks, etc. Also was very close to the river and he loves hunting and fishing. Now I assume his taxes have gone up and he is paying more for the house now than before, but there is no way you get a 10 year old 6 bedroom house for triple that in Sioux Falls. My point is that you can't assume that you have a better teacher in a larger school, just that you have more teachers.

As for opportunities, that can also vary. When we lived in the Twin Cities, we found no public schools that offered orchestra at the middle school level, and only a couple private schools. Almost every district there is larger than Sioux Falls, but Sioux Falls has offered orchestra at the middle school level for years.

With all that said, I do believe that schools in eastern SD do need to consolidate. My wife went to Jones County in Murdo. In college, we tried to figure out the largest (enrollment) district we could create in eastern SD without including Sioux Falls. If I remember correctly we could, with rotating the district, get it to include Madison, Brookings, Watertown and close to Huron, with all the small schools in between. Of course that is not a realistic plan because transportation would be prohibitive, but my home town of Arlington now coops with Lake Preston, De Smet and Iroquis for wrestling. I think a high school in the center of Kingsbury county could serve all the students well, and the travel still would be far, far less than those districts out west.

I get where you are coming from 1stRowFanatic about cost of living and the idea about quality of teacher aren't necessary granted in a larger school.  But I see it this way, teachers in larger schools have more resources and more kids to teach thus making them better teacher than their counterparts at small schools with limited resources.

Take a look at this list with teachers pay and everything else associated with SD schools.  

http://doe.sd.gov/ofm/applications/s...st/default.asp

My hometown of Milbank:  Enrollement (all are k-12) 981--avg. pay $33,600-avg. exp of teachers=22 years

Grant Deuel--Enrollement 228-avg. pay=30,000--avg. teacher experience=15 years
(town is 16 miles from Milbank)


Waverly--Enrollment 144-avg. pay=26,480--avg. teacher experience=9.4 years
(town is 24 miles to Milbank, and 15 miles to Watertown)


South Shore--Enrollment 113--avg pay=27,000--avg. teacher experience=16 years
(town is 20 miles from Milbank)


There would obviously be a huge difference in the quality of learning that would take place in a school district with larger budget, ect..  More experienced and better paid teachers would increase quality of student learning (in theory--not always the case).  

I just think that these numbers show that it makes sense to send these kids to MIlbank.  Yes, I know losing the school basically kills the town but there is nothing there to go back for anyways.  20 miles is not that far of a drive to go to school, and this would not be a huge burden for the schools for the fact that more state dollars would be coming in due to increased students.


Also be advised we have this predicament.  Lets say that Grant-Deuel, Waverly, South Shore all sent their kids to MIlbank school, we could never handle all those kids in our classroom.  Additions would have to be made and more teachers would be hired, which might but MIlbank in a finanacial crunch for a while.  
Almost seems like a lose-lose??

[1stRowFANatic]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

It can be a very difficult proposition, especially if one of the small towns has recently erected a new building. I am not against consolidating, and think there are many places that it could be done efficiently. My fear is that a plan forced from Pierre will not be flexible enough to accomodate the different situations. Administrative expenses are the first that could be combined, and it has started in some places. But using Go Herds example, if they first combined administration and use some distance learning to provide opportunities to all the students, the next time the district builds a new elementary, they bring all those together, same with middle school, etc. At that point, they may find the most economical way for everyone is not to have the school actually in Milbank. That would seem to be a better plan than forcing the consolidation.

[Go_Herd]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

yeah it definetly is a case-by-case decision/problem. I don't want to see Pierre make some sort of mandate either. Hopefully whatever is done, people have it in their heads that it is not about loyalty or personal pride, but it's about the well-being of the kids.