Education Bill in SD Legislature

[Haldersham]

I been reading about a bill that will require all school districts in South Dakota with less than 200 pupils (K-12) to become part of a considation plan with another district. If the affected districts do not want to cooperate, the legislature supposely will force them into a plan of consolidation. I am not precise on this but the Argus and other state daily papers have written considerably about this bill. I not so sure this is a good bill. Forty five years ago, I would have agreed with any form of consolidations. Some districts were trying to operate with far less than 40 high school students. These small schools scrambled every year to get teachers and sometimes they were hired one week before the term started. The taxpayers were never happy and most were deeply in debt. The consolidation and reorganization that followed were badly needed and were mandated by the legislature. Is another round needed? I am not so sure.


I recently sat by a retired school administrator at a Tax seminar. We got to visiting and he told me that North Dakota legislature has never gotten involved in legislation thate affects school districts in terms of size and number of students requirements. This gentleman thought South Dakota had done the right thing in passing legislation. In North Dakota by law, you could operate a district and received state funding with as few as 5 students. Reorganization in ND apparently has more or less followed local interests in that school districts and high schools have closed on their own whenever it became apparent that they could no longer operated fiscally and moved to consolidate. I dont know which is better. Lose of rural population has created problems and more problems as time as evolved.

[2006gwfcchamps]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

I think as more people move into the population centers away from farming, consolidation is the only reasonable route.

Why should taxpayers prop up an entire district that serves 20 kids K-12?

[Haldersham]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

I think as more people move into the population centers away from farming, consolidation is the only reasonable route.

Why should taxpayers prop up an entire district that serves 20 kids K-12?

No question population is a key factor but so is taxes, but in this bill its about who makes the decision.  Is it a local or is it state decision? If this bill is enacted into law it will be made in Pierre and not locally. There some districts with over a 100 or even close to 200 students who seem be doing okay.  I think the remaining districts in SD are looking for ways to solve their problems and maybe feel it can be done best locally.

[2006gwfcchamps]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

Yeah but what do you with a district like this:

slightly more than 50% old people who refuse to vote in any way that will consolidate their district. The slightly less than 50% are young families who want their children to go to a consolidated district to give them more opportunities while saving tax money.


The old people won't budge and the only other option for the young families is to go private, if it's even available, or move to a new district.

[West_River_Jack]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

Yeah but what do you with a district like this:

slightly more than 50% old people who refuse to vote in any way that will consolidate their district. The slightly less than 50% are young families who want their children to go to a consolidated district to give them more opportunities while saving tax money.


The old people won't budge and the only other option for the young families is to go private, if it's even available, or move to a new district.

I try to maintain a lot of respect for our older people.  I am getting very close to being one of them.  However, a lot of older people that I know base their priorities and their votes on what was important when they were in school or when their kids were in school and don't consider current educational priorities and needs.  This makes it very hard for schools in gray communities to be progressive.  This is one force which may end up driving the bill for greater control by state government.

[jackmd]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

[quote author=2006gwfcchamps link=1169407608/0#3 date=1169420553]Yeah but what do you with a district like this:

slightly more than 50% old people who refuse to vote in any way that will consolidate their district. The slightly less than 50% are young families who want their children to go to a consolidated district to give them more opportunities while saving tax money.


The old people won't budge and the only other option for the young families is to go private, if it's even available, or move to a new district.

I try to maintain a lot of respect for our older people.  I am getting very close to being one of them.  However, a lot of older people that I know base their priorities and their votes on what was important when they were in school or when their kids were in school and don't consider current educational priorities and needs.  This makes it very hard for schools in gray communities to be progressive.  This is one force which may end up driving the bill for greater control by state government.
[/quote]

My mother was a school teacher and administrator in a small school that then consolidated. Without a doubt the proper decision (early 70's). It is her opinion that small SD communities that can consolidated continuing to drag their ifeet is costing students, parents, taxpayers, etc... I assure you the suggestion has been in place for decades for many of these small schools. I think the state legislatures are now feeling pressed to do what they think is best for "society".

[JimmyJack]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

[quote author=2006gwfcchamps link=1169407608/0#1 date=1169413951]I think as more people move into the population centers away from farming, consolidation is the only reasonable route.

Why should taxpayers prop up an entire district that serves 20 kids K-12?

No question population is a key factor but so is taxes, but in this bill its about who makes the decision. Is it a local or is it state decision? If this bill is enacted into law it will be made in Pierre and not locally. There some districts with over a 100 or even close to 200 students who seem be doing okay. I think the remaining districts in SD are looking for ways to solve their problems and maybe feel it can be done best locally.
[/quote]

Local control is nice. But education isn't just funded by local property tax dollars. Districts with fewer then 200 students receive an extra 20 percent per student in state money, $847 per student. What sense does that make? South Dakota taxpayers subsidize the inefficiency of those tiny districts.

I think there's also an argument about the quality of education in a very small school district. You cannot tell me that students have the same opportunities to be prepared for college in a district with 75 students as they do in Brookings or Sioux Falls. Supporters of small districts always talk about one-on-one learning. That oversimplifies things. Class sizes in small districts may be smaller. But we're talking 18 in a classroom instead of 25. There are fewer students... and there are fewer teachers. One-on-one learning is a red herring. What about access to computers? What about the breadth of the curriculum? What about specialized and college prep classes? Do students in Burke take college-level courses in high school? I'm thinking not so much.

Some people suggest that the "one-to-one" factor makes up for that. But the one-to-one factor is a myth. Smaller schools offer students fewer opportunities at a higher cost. Nobody is suggesting that we create regional super-schools here. The bill in the Legislature simply says that the state cannot afford to subsidize extreme inefficiency (school districts with fewer than 200 students) anymore.

Finally, what does "local" mean? If you suggest that forcing two or three very small schools in two counties with 5,000 total residents to consolidate is taking away local control, I would argue that point.

[AZjack]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

You guys from east river have to remember how far apart the schools in west river are already spread out. I don't have time right now to delve into this, but there are some other sides to this issue to think about.

[JimmyJack]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

You guys from east river have to remember how far apart the schools in west river are already spread out. I don't have time right now to delve into this, but there are some other sides to this issue to think about.

The West River schools that are far from another school are exempt from the proposal. It only affects East River schools.

[jackmd]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

You guys from east river have to remember how far apart the schools in west river are already spread out.  I don't have time right now to delve into this, but there are some other sides to this issue to think about.

What JJ said. Distance from school-to-school is considered in the proposal.

[2006gwfcchamps]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

I can see how small school district administrators would fight it tooth and nail. If 2 districts consolidate, half of the total administrators are going to lose their jobs.

[Haldersham]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

You guys from east river have to remember how far apart the schools in west river are already spread out.  I don't have time right now to delve into this, but there are some other sides to this issue to think about.

In the bill is an exception for sparse districts, which have few students, but have large area districts. There are a number of definitions that have not been defined.  When they say 200 students is that an actual count on a given day, is it Average Daily Membership ADM which is a measure currently used? These questions are not answered according to my weekly The Arlington Sun. In this article, editor Frank Crisler says Arlington, Sioux Valley, Desmet and Hamlin seem to measure up and will probably benefit from this law. Schools like Oldham-Ramona and Willow Lake appear to be in trouble and will have to fight for their existence. Lake Preston, the town that produced the NDSU line man Buckendahl is very close to being less than 200 and they could be in trouble. Lake Preston is located between Desmet and Arlington and probably could consolidate with either if push comes to shove.

There are  many questions to be answered and the legislature is going to have to decide whether it should advance. This bill came from a two year study of school districts of a task force appointed by the governor. The task force made no recommendations, but certain lawmakers where part of the task force and they more or less came up with the bill on their own.

[BTownJack]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

[quote author=AZjack link=1169407608/0#7 date=1169449073]You guys from east river have to remember how far apart the schools in west river are already spread out.  I don't have time right now to delve into this, but there are some other sides to this issue to think about.

In the bill is an exception for sparse districts, which have few students, but have large area districts. There are a number of definitions that have not been defined.  When they say 200 students is that an actual count on a given day, is it Average Daily Membership ADM which is a measure currently used? These questions are not answered according to my weekly The Arlington Sun. In this article, editor Frank Crisler says Arlington, Sioux Valley, Desmet and Hamlin seem to measure up and will probably benefit from this law. Schools like Oldham-Ramona and Willow Lake appear to be in trouble and will have to fight for their existence. Lake Preston, the town that produced the NDSU line man Buckendahl is very close to being less than 200 and they could be in trouble. Lake Preston is located between Desmet and Arlington and probably could consolidate with either if push comes to shove.

There are  many questions to be answered and the legislature is going to have to decide whether it should advance. This bill came from a two year study of school districts of a task force appointed by the governor. The task force made no recommendations, but certain lawmakers where part of the task force and they more or less came up with the bill on their own.[/quote]

The lineman for NDSU that graduated from Lake Preston was Justin Buckwalter. Just for clarity's sake.

[Haldersham]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

[quote author=Haldersham link=1169407608/0#2 date=1169419251][quote author=2006gwfcchamps link=1169407608/0#1 date=1169413951]I think as more people move into the population centers away from farming, consolidation is the only reasonable route.

Why should taxpayers prop up an entire district that serves 20 kids K-12?

No question population is a key factor but so is taxes, but in this bill its about who makes the decision.  Is it a local or is it state decision? If this bill is enacted into law it will be made in Pierre and not locally. There some districts with over a 100 or even close to 200 students who seem be doing okay.  I think the remaining districts in SD are looking for ways to solve their problems and maybe feel it can be done best locally.
[/quote]

Local control is nice. But education isn't just funded by local property tax dollars. Districts with fewer then 200 students receive an extra 20 percent per student in state money, $847 per student. What sense does that make? South Dakota taxpayers subsidize the inefficiency of those tiny districts.

I think there's also an argument about the quality of education in a very small school district. You cannot tell me that students have the same opportunities to be prepared for college in a district with 75 students as they do in Brookings or Sioux Falls. Supporters of small districts always talk about one-on-one learning. That oversimplifies things. Class sizes in small districts may be smaller. But we're talking 18 in a classroom instead of 25. There are fewer students... and there are fewer teachers. One-on-one learning is a red herring. What about access to computers? What about the breadth of the curriculum? What about specialized and college prep classes? Do students in Burke take college-level courses in high school? I'm thinking not so much.

Some people suggest that the "one-to-one" factor makes up for that. But the one-to-one factor is a myth. Smaller schools offer students fewer opportunities at a higher cost. Nobody is suggesting that we create regional super-schools here. The bill in the Legislature simply says that the state cannot afford to subsidize extreme inefficiency (school districts with fewer than 200 students) anymore.

Finally, what does "local" mean? If you suggest that forcing two or three very small schools in two counties with 5,000 total residents to consolidate is taking away local control, I would argue that point.[/quote]

Jimmy Jack;
These are excellent points, all which I would agree. School reorganization has come a long ways in the past 40-50 years, I have felt that maybe South Dakota had gotten to the point of where the local districts could now make the remaining decisions, but maybe not if its about keeping a town alive and fear of losing the school etc. Granted larger districts are economically efficent and can offer more. Dont have any problem with that point.

I think the big factor driving this problem is that education is primarily financed with property taxes.  This is an area I dont know much about, but if the county asseses you and you pay your bill does not that money stay with the local district? I suspect that is not sufficent to operate on and each district then must receive so much a pupil from the legislature appropriated funds. I think some of our more urban people can be a bit unsensitive when they bring up the waste spent in keeping smaller districts operating. In fairness, they should experience the life in that smaller district before they speak. They might see why its important to keep a school going.

[JimmyJack]

Re: Education Bill in SD Legislature

This is an area I dont know much about, but if the county asseses you and you pay your bill does not that money stay with the local district? I suspect that is not sufficent to operate on and each district then must receive so much a pupil from the legislature appropriated funds. I think some of our more urban people can be a bit unsensitive when they bring up the waste spent in keeping smaller districts operating. In fairness, they should experience the life in that smaller district before they speak. They might see why its important to keep a school going.

Each local government entity assesses a portion of the property tax bill. You get one bill, and it's split up and distributed to county, city (or other locality), and school. The state pumps additional money into school districts based on a complex formula that includes the previously mentioned $847 per pupil addition for small districts.

I'm well aware that the main reason people in small towns want to maintain their school is to preserve a local identity. Take away Burke's school and combine it with two or three others, and Burke loses much of its identity. There are travel issues as well, but I'm sure culturally it's difficult for a small community to "lose" a school. Do students really benefit from a tiny school district? I think that from what I've seen, the disadvantages outweight the advantages.

I'm no "big city" person. There were 200 people in my graduating class. By most standards, that's a pretty small school.