More higher education cuts?

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: More higher education cuts?

I hate to speak for RabbitinTea, but I'd love the chance to take a stab at some of your questions

I'm pretty sure, okay, I'm positive that he wasn't talking about consolidating growing districts like Tea, Belle Fourche, or even Brookings for that matter. That is just a dumb comparison. But the state probably could do well looking at consolidation options for schools like (and I'm just using examples) Grant Deuel, Herried, or others. Take a look at the article in the Argus this past weekend, there are a number of schools (I quickly counted 15) with 10 or less students enrolled at the first grade level. Does it make sense to keep a school open when they are educating ten kids per grade level?

http://www.argusleader.com/article/2...311/-1/archive

I don't think it is a dumb comparison at all.

If the goal is to have the most effecient system, Tea could actually jump out as one district that could be looked at for consolidation. 4 principals and a superintendant in a very small (geographically speaking) school district within 15 minutes drive of at least 3 other districts (arguably 4) would be duplication and wasteful spending to many casual observers.

Here's a map http://doe.sd.gov/ofm/documents/sdmap1011.pdf

A pretty strong argument could be made that a school like Tea should be consolidated before some smaller schools 45 minutes away from their closest potential consolidation partner.

This just illustrates the point about school consolidation, everybody thinks its a great idea, as long as it doesn't happen in my backyard.

None of the choices being made are easy. I don't know if I would necessarily say Madison or DSU is thriving, although it would be hard to see either go away or shrink.

All I know about Madison is that every time I drive through the town there seems to be a brand new building for a business going up. It really has changed quite a bit from even 5 years ago.

It is possible for somebody to know what is taught in both programs, right? Especially somebody that might work in the Computer or Info Tech industry, and have direct experience within both programs. I'm sure DSU does turn out some quality grads - all SD Public Universities do - RabbitinTea wasn't saying they didn't. He was saying that the program at SDSU provides it's students the opportunities to do even better.

Of course its possible to know what's taught in both programs. I just think it is the default of posters on this board to think SDSU has the best x, no matter what x is. SDSU has the best engineering school in the state according the the recent engineering grad, but just because someone says it doesn't make it true.

I would venture to guess that the BOR won't let SDSU - something about duplication of programs and/or subjects within their system. DSU has been anoited the tech friendly university in the system (some would say for good reason, they needed a niche and cashed in on that one). Same reason you can get an early childhood education degree and a secondary education degree from SDSU - allowing you teach school aged kids up until 2nd grade and from 6th grade on - but you can't complete an Elementry Education degree in Brookings giving you certification for those missing levels.

Aren't the programs already basically duplicated? That's what I got from the post by RabbitinTea.

If they aren't, then I agree with what you wrote.

I can think one good reason - so the Pharmacy and Nursing students that SDSU are training are self sufficient enough in the area of health care information technology that they don't need to contact an IT person everytime they are asked to work with it. I'm sure that both of those programs at SDSU weave that into their curriculum already, but having the programs on the same campus seems like a win/win. The more integration of the these programs the better - it only seems to make sense to me.

I'm sorry, but that still doesn't make sense to me.

SDSU has some fine computer programmers. SDSU turns out some fine corn farmers. Do the computer programmers interact with the agronomy department so those students can learn how to operate their GPS systems in their combines? They should go hand in hand, right? To further illustrate, does having electrical engineering at SDSU benefit the performing arts majors? After all, there are some pretty complex lighting systems in place at some SDSU plays.

Are the HealthIT students going to be working side by side on a daily basis with Nursing and Pharmacy students? I admit at first glance that HealthIT and Nursing and Pharmacy seem like they would go hand in hand, but in day to day practice on a college campus, these two departments are not likely to interract.

These two fields are about as apples and oranges as they get.

[jackmd]

Re: More higher education cuts?

This debate has gotten less and less relevant as individuals express their own misguided and biased opinions. One of the more pleasant things about this board is the absence of politically based arguments trying to pit rural against urban, left against right, or dog against cat.

I say keep it Jackrabbits against everybody and save the rest for other forums, internet or otherwise. Just my opinion, I say shut this thread down. My neck hurts after reading some of the most recent posts.

[Jacks-02]

Re: More higher education cuts?

Or you could just ignore this thread and let the people that chose to debate the topic continue to do so?

[RabbitObsessed]

Re: More higher education cuts?

This debate has gotten less and less relevant as individuals express their own misguided and biased opinions. One of the more pleasant things about this board is the absence of politically based arguments trying to pit rural against urban, left against right, or dog against cat.

I say keep it Jackrabbits against everybody and save the rest for other forums, internet or otherwise. Just my opinion, I say shut this thread down. My neck hurts after reading some of the most recent posts.

I thought it was a fairly civil debate, as far as politics is concerned. And it DOES have relevance involving SDSU.

[JimmyJack]

Re: More higher education cuts?

There is a big difference between administrative consolidation within the SDBOR and closing down a campus. Closing a campus is not a viable option right now, for about a zillion reasons, political and otherwise.

As far as programs go, the SDBOR did a comprehensive Program Productivity Review last year and closed down dozens of programs that weren't producing graduates at a sufficient rate.

This is a very efficient university system. We are educating thousands more students this FY using tens of millions less in state dollars than we had even three years ago.

[jackmd]

Re: More higher education cuts?

I thought it was a fairly civil debate, as far as politics is concerned. And it DOES have relevance involving SDSU.

I spend plenty of my time in a productive fashion lobbying for SDSU as it pertains to state funding. Same thing for my local school district. I don't care to spend time of this forum watching others do the same. It does spill over into other threads so just ignoring this one doesn't solve the problem.

I understand if others feel differently. I'm simply expressing my opinion as it pertains to this topic on this forum. Advice, if you really want to be heard and make a difference contact your legislators or become a Jackrabbit Advocate.

I've been an active member of this board almost as long as anybody, they may not qualify me to judge the merits of a thread but then again it may. Either way, I'm not a moderator for a number of reasons so carry on.

[RabbitinTea]

Re: More higher education cuts?

I don't have time to defend every counter point. I simply have an opinion and stated it. Pertaining to the Tea school district one would only need to point at the temporary buildings that stood next to the brand new school the day it opened to understand they're bursting at the seams. I would support consolidation, but it doesn't seem to make much sense when they're one of the fastest growing districts. If it's a geography argument, then maybe Sioux Falls should just have one school?

The Healthcare IT argument simply made sense to me to add a degree in Information Technology, which SDSU already has, and add to our Healthcare offerings in Nursing and Pharmacy. With all of the advancements in Electronic Medical Records and Healthcare Reform, this would be a good program to offer. DSU is capitalizing on this already and was named the Regional Extension Center for South Dakota. DSU is making some smart moves and is a viable University. I was simply trying to make an argument for consolidating and saving some money. Even if we decreased the administrative overhead by making Madison a satellite campus, we'd save quite a bit of money. I know it's impossible, but sometimes it might be nice to make a decision based on logic and not on politics. So, we should take 10 percent away from great programs all over the state because we don't have the cahones to make some tough decisions? This is why I won't ever get elected to office, I guess.

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: More higher education cuts?

I think its probably worth mentioning that most of the state legislatures in South Dakota are pretty much average South Dakotans. While politics probably come into play more often than we would like, overall they make decisions based on what they think is best for the state and the people who live here.

Maybe I'm wrong in that statement, or just naive, but that's the way I see it.

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: More higher education cuts?

I mentioned before that most people agree that consolidation would be an effective way to reduce K-12 duplication of costs. So the question becomes, how would the state go about accomplishing that?

Would they ask individual school districts and their voters nicely, would they shut down small schools outright.

Or would they continually reduce funding until smaller districts have no choice but to consolidate?

Would they take the same approach with university funding?

[filbert]

Re: More higher education cuts?

Fodder for people's consideration:

Cuts in higher education are nationwide: The Sinking States

Faculty are discussing what to do: Restoring the Faculty Voice

Higher education's bubble is about to burst - Glenn Reynolds, law professor, U. of Tennessee, Instapundit

The Higher Education Bubble - Michael Barone

Three Strategies for Broke States

Public Education's Silver Bullet - very interesting ideas from Terry Moe, professor of political science at Stanford on K-12 education reform . . .

(Note: I don't necessarily endorse any ideas or proposals in the above, merely present them for consideration . . .)

Part of the problem we're experiencing, I think, is "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." It's well past time to consider other tools than hammers (i.e. simply spending more public money) to try to solve public policy problems, IMHO.

"For every problem there is a solution which is simple, clean and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken

[bigticket1]

Re: More higher education cuts?

This is a question that someone like Jimmy Jack might be able to answer. If the cuts at SDSU are as big as projected,how much could be saved by not filling open positions and perhaps nudging those close to retirement to make the jump through some incentives,buy-outs etc... Also,would part-time positions and grad assistants be cut before full-time staff ? Let's hope the legislature chooses to spread the budget make-up over a 2 or 3 year period,rather than all in one shot.

[JimmyJack]

Re: More higher education cuts?

This is a question that someone like Jimmy Jack might be able to answer. If the cuts at SDSU are as big as projected,how much could be saved by not filling open positions and perhaps nudging those close to retirement to make the jump through some incentives,buy-outs etc... Also,would part-time positions and grad assistants be cut before full-time staff ? Let's hope the legislature chooses to spread the budget make-up over a 2 or 3 year period,rather than all in one shot.

Not filling positions will be the first wave of budget cutting. There will be some savings there, no doubt. Unfortunately, that has already been done for the last two years to make up prior cuts. If you look at the SDBOR employment site, there are very few jobs that are open. And I'm told with the economy in bad shape there aren't as many retirements as there might otherwise be. We're being told that as many as 64 positions could be cut. Most of those will not be open when they're cut.

Who will it be? The SDBOR has a set of very clearly set out procedures that say layoffs must start with people classified as "temporary" (and that classification does include many full-time people), move to "term" employees (staff, non-tenure-track and, I suppose, administrators) and only then to tenure-track personnel. Once all is said and done, some people are going to lose their jobs, I'm afraid.

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: More higher education cuts?

This is a question that someone like Jimmy Jack might be able to answer. If the cuts at SDSU are as big as projected,how much could be saved by not filling open positions and perhaps nudging those close to retirement to make the jump through some incentives,buy-outs etc... Also,would part-time positions and grad assistants be cut before full-time staff ? Let's hope the legislature chooses to spread the budget make-up over a 2 or 3 year period,rather than all in one shot.

Could someone more knowledgable than myself explain the advantages to spreading the cuts over 2-3 years?

[Nidaros]

Re: More higher education cuts?

Could someone more knowledgable than myself explain the advantages to spreading the cuts over 2-3 years?

Less painful and less sharp cuts to K-12 budgets. Maybe only 21 jobs will be cut this year at SDSU instead of 64. I work with an SDSU employee doing income taxes. Is she worried about losing her job? Yes she is, a very good Republican btw. The biggest advantage is there is less chance of destroying entites that now depend state aid such as K-12 schools. Even the Chief Justice of the South Dakota Supreme court is concerned about cuts and being able to perform their function. Governor Dugaard keeps talking about how a deferral will be just kicking the can down the road. Well making lesser entitites that depend on state taxation have their budgets destroy by this one time overwhelming cut is also kicking the can down the road to other entities. With only 5 Democrats in the South Dakota Senate and 26 reps in the house, what little can they offer in resistence? Asking this question is mute since our voters choose a one party government to represent them in Pierre. The 10 per cent cut is a slam dunk, and the Gov takes the risk of the consequences.

[SF_Rabbit_Fan]

Re: More higher education cuts?

Less painful and less sharp cuts to K-12 budgets. Maybe only 21 jobs will be cut this year at SDSU instead of 64. I work with an SDSU employee doing income taxes. Is she worried about losing her job? Yes she is, a very good Republican btw. The biggest advantage is there is less chance of destroying entites that now depend state aid such as K-12 schools. Even the Chief Justice of the South Dakota Supreme court is concerned about cuts and being able to perform their function. Governor Dugaard keeps talking about how a deferral will be just kicking the can down the road. Well making lesser entitites that depend on state taxation have their budgets destroy by this one time overwhelming cut is also kicking the can down the road to other entities. With only 5 Democrats in the South Dakota Senate and 26 reps in the house, what little can they offer in resistence? Asking this question is mute since our voters choose a one party government to represent them in Pierre. The 10 per cent cut is a slam dunk, and the Gov takes the risk of the consequences.

Thanks, and I think its a good analogy of kicking the can down the road. Both sides see the other's solution as passing the buck, so to speak. I do wonder about what revenues will look like next year if video lottery revenue is down, as the smoking ban opponents were suggesting. In other words, if things don't get better by next year, could we be looking at 15% cuts instead of these "one time" 10% cuts. I guess either way, if things don't improve, tough decisions will need to be made again next year.

The more I learn about this issue, the more I think Prairiehass's suggestion (I think it was him) about raising fees for things like vehicle licensing paired with more modest cuts may be the right way to go.

Here's another question. As I understand it, the Dept of Game, Fish, and Parks is basically self-suffecient. A family member works in that department, and told me a few months back that they wouldn't be a part of any cuts because "they are a whole separate entity and get all their money from hunting license sales." I could be misinformed on this, if anybody knows feel free to correct me. Are they facing cuts as well? If not, why not force cuts in their department as well, and use the overflow to help balance things out in other areas? Probably wouldn't be a ton of money, but would be worth looking into (as long as my previous assumption holds true).