Spanked By a Bunch of Elephants

[Coyote_Fan]

Re: Spanked By a Bunch of Elephants

Short addition regarding NDSU men's basketball:

I think a major reason we've succeeded to date is because the program was basically rebooted in 2004-05. New coach, new system, new players. If we had tried to evolve from the past, I think we would have failed. The jump to DI in MBB is so steep, that it's probably better to start from scratch in most cases rather than try to improve your program using smaller steps. It's also probably one of the only sports where this is true; the talent curve isn't nearly so steep in other sports. We basically did the same in volleyball and are doing the same in women's basketball, but neither of those were by choice.

It's very late night/very early morning and I should be asleep* so take the above with a grain of salt.

*f-ing Guitar Hero

I do agree with the notion of starting over from scratch can sometimes be the best way to go. With Nagy having such a reputation he would have had to practically take a stick of dynamite to Frost Arena to get fired due to his past success. Boots might have the same type of rope that Nagy has. I would hope that if the Yotes struggle and continue that way for 4+ years that it would be the end of the line for him.

[Hammersmith]

Re: Spanked By a Bunch of Elephants

Short addition regarding NDSU men's basketball:

I think a major reason we've succeeded to date is because the program was basically rebooted in 2004-05. New coach, new system, new players. If we had tried to evolve from the past, I think we would have failed. The jump to DI in MBB is so steep, that it's probably better to start from scratch in most cases rather than try to improve your program using smaller steps. It's also probably one of the only sports where this is true; the talent curve isn't nearly so steep in other sports. We basically did the same in volleyball and are doing the same in women's basketball, but neither of those were by choice.

It's very late night/very early morning and I should be asleep* so take the above with a grain of salt.

*f-ing Guitar Hero

Re: Spanked By a Bunch of Elephants

For NDSU going DI was the big deal, recruits didn't want to come here to play DII basketball. Just look at Woodside, Nelson, and Winks...without DI they most likely are not here right now. Going DI also gave the program some new footing, by helping to create some interest in the program because DII basketball is basically an afterthought around here.

Miles also deserves credit, because he laid the foundation with his plan and recruiting but just moving DI gave the program the new life it needed.

As for what we have done, win at Wisconsin and Marquette and than give me a call. Keep in mind that I'm not even asking you to do it in back to back years.

As for Fargo, I don't know what the impact is but I'm sure it is a ways down on the list(coaches, academics, facilities, tradition are all a bit more important).

I can agree with that. I was never really a fan of Tim Miles. I don't know why either. But he sure was a great coach and he deserves a ton of credit.

And Yote Fans: Nothin hurt on the wrestling/baseball thing. Just had to add something to it. I actually wish SDSU had fewer sports. But baseball and wrestling are not two of them.

[FargoBison]

Re: Spanked By a Bunch of Elephants

I can't argue a whole lot with that but I don't think the size of Fargo is making a difference in D1 that wasn't doing the same in D2. NDSU didn't do much in mens basketball when they were D2 and they still were located in Fargo so I don't think that factor means much now that they are D1. I still think it's mainly coaching and somewhat player talent but coaching recruits and assesses talent so I think coaching is the single most important aspect to a program. That is unless the talent discrepency is great in what one like program gets vs another. I dont think what NDSU has done in basketball is out of this world or anything. It's good but not really good like the SDSU Women's program. USD can certainly do what NDSU is doing right now. That doesn't mean they will but certainly could. Being 2nd or 3rd in the Summit is decent but not unattainable.

For NDSU going DI was the big deal, recruits didn't want to come here to play DII basketball. Just look at Woodside, Nelson, and Winks...without DI they most likely are not here right now. Going DI also gave the program some new footing, by helping to create some interest in the program because DII basketball is basically an afterthought around here.

Miles also deserves credit, because he laid the foundation with his plan and recruiting but just moving DI gave the program the new life it needed.

As for what we have done, win at Wisconsin and Marquette and than give me a call. Keep in mind that I'm not even asking you to do it in back to back years.

As for Fargo, I don't know what the impact is but I'm sure it is a ways down on the list(coaches, academics, facilities, tradition are all a bit more important).

[Coyote_Fan]

Re: Spanked By a Bunch of Elephants

I only read your first two sentences and gave up after that. I'm so sick of talking about this crap. I don't know why I even do.

Anyways, USD will struggle in men's basketball just like SDSU did (although probably not as bad because can SDSU get any worse??). NDSU is the exception to the rule. Because of Fargo's size, that helps with recruiting. USD may be ok with football, but who knows. I think you'll win a few games for now and after 5 years you'll see where you're at.

Women's basketball will struggle. I think AJ is the exception to the rule for women's basketball. After he moves on, who knows what will happen with the program at SDSU. We hope we find a good coach but ya never know. You're baseball and wrestling teams will struggle as well. Any program at USD, UND, SDSU, NDSU can easily be a middle of the pack for D-1, but only special programs will do well. Each sport will have it's periods of dominance, etc. Being that we're not on the national scene, coaches will move up and out of these places only to have the programs go south for a few years. We'll all have our ups and downs.

I can't argue a whole lot with that but I don't think the size of Fargo is making a difference in D1 that wasn't doing the same in D2. NDSU didn't do much in mens basketball when they were D2 and they still were located in Fargo so I don't think that factor means much now that they are D1. I still think it's mainly coaching and somewhat player talent but coaching recruits and assesses talent so I think coaching is the single most important aspect to a program. That is unless the talent discrepency is great in what one like program gets vs another. I dont think what NDSU has done in basketball is out of this world or anything. It's good but not really good like the SDSU Women's program. USD can certainly do what NDSU is doing right now. That doesn't mean they will but certainly could. Being 2nd or 3rd in the Summit is decent but not unattainable.

[yoteforever]

Re: Spanked By a Bunch of Elephants

Quote: "You're baseball and wrestling teams will struggle as well."

No doubt on that one! In fact, I'll go so far as to say they won't win a single wrestling match or a single baseball game in their "march" towards D-I. Hey Rabbit Observer, want to take a wager on that???

How many wrestling schlorships does SDSU have available? And how does that compare against the majors in the sport?

[yoteforever]

Re: Spanked By a Bunch of Elephants

Quote: "You're baseball and wrestling teams will struggle as well."

No doubt on that one! In fact, I'll go so far as to say they won't win a single wrestling match or a single baseball game in their "march" towards D-I. Hey Rabbit Observer, want to take a wager on that???

Good point!! For the record, how is your wrestling team? I don't have any idea. Are you pretty good? I would think with as good as high school wrestling is in the state, you may have a decent program.

[Jacks#1Fan]

Re: Spanked By a Bunch of Elephants

Quote: "You're baseball and wrestling teams will struggle as well."

No doubt on that one! In fact, I'll go so far as to say they won't win a single wrestling match or a single baseball game in their "march" towards D-I. Hey Rabbit Observer, want to take a wager on that???

Re: Spanked By a Bunch of Elephants

When it comes to comparing USD to SDSU and visa versa two reasonable trains of thought are prevelant. If you are one that thinks USD is going to struggle in D1 in Mens Basketball because SDSU has than shouldn't you also believe that USD will thrive in football and Womens Basketball. If you believe the opposite in that USD won't necessarily be successfull in Football or WBB than wouldn't it also be fair to assume that USD also won't necessarily struggle as much as SDSU in MBB.

I probably fall somewhere in the middle. I think the NCC roots are important in determining the liklihood for success in particular sports at the next level. I also think that past performance from the NCC may not necessarily be a future indicator when looking forward to D1 performance. In the NCC in MBB SDSU and USD both had good success within the conference over the past several years. The NCC as a conference was overrated on a nation scope as proven by the past performances in post season. Eventhough SDSU and USD were at the top of the NCC neither had success on a national scale. I see SDSU as stuggling despite a strong NCC background but because basketball in the NCC was weak on a national scale that also factors into the Jacks struggles in D1. NDSU kind of bucked the trend but they also have a new coach from the D2 days. They did seem to come on a bit over the last year or D2 but they weren't a factor on a national level.

In Womens BB SDSU was a good D2 power and they remain that way into D1. The NCC as a whole was probably the best D2 conference in America which does translate to the next level. Even a program like USD which is really rebuilding this year lost to Concordia by 20 at home but went out to Colorado State and only lost by 1 in a game they had a significant lead in as late as just a few minutes left. It's foolish to think that the USD womens team is going to be a bottom feeder in D1. They would likely take down most of the Summit as SDSU has done. Maybe not by the margin of victory but I will be willing to bet that USD is an above .500 school in that conference.

In football SDSU was a mediocre NCC program in a very good D2 conference. That background most definately helped SDSU get a jump on the D1 competition. The program remained very much the same with improved athletes but the NCC roots played a vital role in SDSU's success. Even USD is showing that in their first year that they are a competitive program for the most part. They had a one or two bad games but otherwise they were right in the game with most FCS programs. Not being a big play and big game team cost them wins moreso than a talent difficiency.

To sum it up I think that the NCC does indeed predict future success in D1 in many instances but in some instances it doesn't hold up. Being that the NCC had a very good rep in football and women bb seems to be very relevant right now for SDSU and NDSU. The early outlook seems to also hold true for USD. It definately remains to be seen whether USD will follow the same success or lack of success path that SDSU and/or NDSU has taken.

I only read your first two sentences and gave up after that. I'm so sick of talking about this crap. I don't know why I even do.

Anyways, USD will struggle in men's basketball just like SDSU did (although probably not as bad because can SDSU get any worse??). NDSU is the exception to the rule. Because of Fargo's size, that helps with recruiting. USD may be ok with football, but who knows. I think you'll win a few games for now and after 5 years you'll see where you're at.

Women's basketball will struggle. I think AJ is the exception to the rule for women's basketball. After he moves on, who knows what will happen with the program at SDSU. We hope we find a good coach but ya never know. You're baseball and wrestling teams will struggle as well. Any program at USD, UND, SDSU, NDSU can easily be a middle of the pack for D-1, but only special programs will do well. Each sport will have it's periods of dominance, etc. Being that we're not on the national scene, coaches will move up and out of these places only to have the programs go south for a few years. We'll all have our ups and downs.

[yoteforever]

Re: Spanked By a Bunch of Elephants

I think USD will be competive in football relatively quickly. USD jumped up to the scholarship limit right away, and the overall competition level in football is not as tough as the competition level in basketball because the bigger, bowl-eligible schools play in a higher subdivision. Regardless, SDSU is on a definite upswing in football. Next year's team is likely to be better than this year's team. I don't know about the Coyoties football personnel, but if USD can find a conference, they'll do OK. ... I think being competitive in basketball will be much tougher than many USD fans think, especially on the men's side. One or two exceptional players cannot dominate at the mid-major level like they could in D-II, and a couple turns of bad luck can have lasting consequences. ... A school's D-II history might be an indicator of D-1 readiness but it's not an indicator of future performance. It's a whole new ball game at D-I in terms of fund-raising, recruiting, coaching, facilities and fan support. Generally, D-1 schools lose transfers, for example. They don't gain them. SDSU mens basketball isn't the only example of a program that's struggled with the adjustment. The NDSU women who dominated in D-II basketball for years, but have yet to do anything special in D-I. I think Northern Colorado, which used to have a solid D-II program, has strugged too. SDSU women's basketball has shined. Good fortune, as well as good players and coaching, has got to be part of that. There's just no other way to explain their success.

Well said. I don't think there is one USD fan that knows the game that doesn't think USD doesn't have a tough road in front of them. The football team will be competitive, but I am guessing will fight hard to be .500. Basketball in one respect tougher for reasons you defined, but also is the quickest to fix with some luck just because of the sheer numbers needed. Recruit 3 very good players, and have some good support players, and you have a chance.

Your win against Iowa State was good, but if you look at my posts prior to the game, I said you had a great chance. Iowa State really isn't very good at times, then can be pretty good another time. I remember when USD beat Iowa State back in '75, I thought that had to be the biggest upset in the history of basketball, but the truth was, Iowa State wasn't that good either.

Bottom line is I think SDSU has done a reasonable good job getting to where you are. Some sports gone better than hoped for, others not so well. That's sports. Good luck with your BB teams the balance of '09.

[Jacked_Up]

Re: Spanked By a Bunch of Elephants

I think USD will be competive in football relatively quickly. USD jumped up to the scholarship limit right away, and the overall competition level in football is not as tough as the competition level in basketball because the bigger, bowl-eligible schools play in a higher subdivision. Regardless, SDSU is on a definite upswing in football. Next year's team is likely to be better than this year's team. I don't know about the Coyoties football personnel, but if USD can find a conference, they'll do OK. ... I think being competitive in basketball will be much tougher than many USD fans think, especially on the men's side. One or two exceptional players cannot dominate at the mid-major level like they could in D-II, and a couple turns of bad luck can have lasting consequences. ... A school's D-II history might be an indicator of D-1 readiness but it's not an indicator of future performance. It's a whole new ball game at D-I in terms of fund-raising, recruiting, coaching, facilities and fan support. Generally, D-1 schools lose transfers, for example. They don't gain them. SDSU mens basketball isn't the only example of a program that's struggled with the adjustment. The NDSU women who dominated in D-II basketball for years, but have yet to do anything special in D-I. I think Northern Colorado, which used to have a solid D-II program, has strugged too. SDSU women's basketball has shined. Good fortune, as well as good players and coaching, has got to be part of that. There's just no other way to explain their success.

[Coyote_Fan]

Re: Spanked By a Bunch of Elephants

Keeping Smith around for another year, if that can be loop-holed into reality, would be wise. It might help slow the Coyoties coming descent into oblivion, which is only a year or two away.

You seem well too confident that the USD program is just going to fall to pieces. So are you also saying that the talent level now and in the past couple of years in D2 is going to be the best talent USD will attrack over the next several years. By that train of thought D1 and D2 are not that much different than. Either that or USD won't be able to have as good of a team in the future as they have now.

[Coyote_Fan]

Re: Spanked By a Bunch of Elephants

When it comes to comparing USD to SDSU and visa versa two reasonable trains of thought are prevelant. If you are one that thinks USD is going to struggle in D1 in Mens Basketball because SDSU has than shouldn't you also believe that USD will thrive in football and Womens Basketball. If you believe the opposite in that USD won't necessarily be successfull in Football or WBB than wouldn't it also be fair to assume that USD also won't necessarily struggle as much as SDSU in MBB.

I probably fall somewhere in the middle. I think the NCC roots are important in determining the liklihood for success in particular sports at the next level. I also think that past performance from the NCC may not necessarily be a future indicator when looking forward to D1 performance. In the NCC in MBB SDSU and USD both had good success within the conference over the past several years. The NCC as a conference was overrated on a nation scope as proven by the past performances in post season. Eventhough SDSU and USD were at the top of the NCC neither had success on a national scale. I see SDSU as stuggling despite a strong NCC background but because basketball in the NCC was weak on a national scale that also factors into the Jacks struggles in D1. NDSU kind of bucked the trend but they also have a new coach from the D2 days. They did seem to come on a bit over the last year or D2 but they weren't a factor on a national level.

In Womens BB SDSU was a good D2 power and they remain that way into D1. The NCC as a whole was probably the best D2 conference in America which does translate to the next level. Even a program like USD which is really rebuilding this year lost to Concordia by 20 at home but went out to Colorado State and only lost by 1 in a game they had a significant lead in as late as just a few minutes left. It's foolish to think that the USD womens team is going to be a bottom feeder in D1. They would likely take down most of the Summit as SDSU has done. Maybe not by the margin of victory but I will be willing to bet that USD is an above .500 school in that conference.

In football SDSU was a mediocre NCC program in a very good D2 conference. That background most definately helped SDSU get a jump on the D1 competition. The program remained very much the same with improved athletes but the NCC roots played a vital role in SDSU's success. Even USD is showing that in their first year that they are a competitive program for the most part. They had a one or two bad games but otherwise they were right in the game with most FCS programs. Not being a big play and big game team cost them wins moreso than a talent difficiency.

To sum it up I think that the NCC does indeed predict future success in D1 in many instances but in some instances it doesn't hold up. Being that the NCC had a very good rep in football and women bb seems to be very relevant right now for SDSU and NDSU. The early outlook seems to also hold true for USD. It definately remains to be seen whether USD will follow the same success or lack of success path that SDSU and/or NDSU has taken.

[Jacked_Up]

Re: Spanked By a Bunch of Elephants

Keeping Smith around for another year, if that can be loop-holed into reality, would be wise. It might help slow the Coyoties coming descent into oblivion, which is only a year or two away.

[RabbitObsessed]

Re: Spanked By a Bunch of Elephants

I heard today that USD is trying to get another year out of Steve Smith. Not sure how that'll go.