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Nidaros
10-14-2009, 07:11 PM
I am not sure where to start this thread, but it is of importance to this board.

Being a regular listener to Fargo Radio KFGO, the big news today was an email sent out from the President's office to students and faculty, that President Joe Chapman will resign as President of NDSU affective Jan 2, 2010.
There have been much publicity about some of the problems relating to the cost over run of a Presidents home that was being built with NDSU Foundation money. The home's current estimated costs to complete will be in excess of 2 million dollars. One million dollars was approved by the State Board of Education. Also Mrs Chapan has been on the foundation payroll for an annual salary of $50,000, with her job description of being an Ambassador for NDSU. Lastly there were complaints about President Chapman's trip to Washington DC for the inagural of President Obama. The trip cost 22,000 dollars and not sure of all the details. None the less the Fargo Forum will be loaded with news tomorrow.

President Chapman was to appear before the equivalent of the Board of Regents on Friday to explain some of these issues and questions raised. I thought President Chapman was a very dynamic leader and had done a great deal for NDSU, but apparently he felt he could no longer lead with all these clouds over his head.

tradition
10-14-2009, 07:13 PM
I am not sure where to start this thread, but it is of importance to this board.

Being a regular listener to Fargo Radio KFGO, the big news today was an email sent out from the President's office to students and faculty, that President Joe Chapman will resign as President of NDSU affective Jan 2, 2010.
There have been much publicity about some of the problems relating to the cost over run of a Presidents home that was being built with NDSU Foundation money. The home's current estimated costs to complete will be in excess of 2 million dollars. One million dollars was approved by the State Board of Education. Also Mrs Chapan has been on the foundation payroll for an annual salary of $50,000, with her job description of being an Ambassador for NDSU. Lastly there were complaints about President Chapman's trip to Washington DC for the inagural of President Obama. The trip cost 22,000 dollars and not sure of all the details. None the less the Fargo Forum will be loaded with news tomorrow.

President Chapman was to appear before the equivalent of the Board of Regents on Friday to explain some of these issues and questions raised. I thought President Chapman was a very dynamic leader and had done a great deal for NDSU, but apparently he felt he could no longer lead with all these clouds over his head.

bad deal. but why are you guys so into NDSU?

Nidaros
10-14-2009, 07:16 PM
bad deal. but why are you guys so into NDSU?

Because I spend a great deal of time in North Dakota. Short answer to long story, plus I see a bit of parellel to our president and the Argus Leader in SF.

JackJD
10-14-2009, 10:14 PM
Whoa, tradition. Today you seem bent on establishing yourself as a jerk. Is there a problem?

Who is "so into NDSU"? I appreciate Nidaros's reporting of the story. I had not heard about the resignation until I decided to check SDSUFans.com.

Pres. Chapman's resignation is news. I think SDSU fans have a favorable impression of Chapman. It has appeared to us he's done a good job at NDSU and NDSU has benefitted from his leadership.

Keep in mind, tradition, at one time there was Dakota Territory. SDSU was started in 1881. A few years later the territory was split into North and South Dakota. NDSU was started in 1890, I believe. While the history is a little sketchy, it appears the early SDSU had a little hand in the formation of NDSU. To this day, the two schools share many traditions -- thank goodness you're not one of them.

Mind your manners.

KUlawJack
10-14-2009, 11:33 PM
bad deal. but why are you guys so into NDSU?

Have a look at the thread section. Seems to say MVFC. Last I looked NDSU was in that.

FargoBison
10-15-2009, 12:04 AM
I am not sure where to start this thread, but it is of importance to this board.

Being a regular listener to Fargo Radio KFGO, the big news today was an email sent out from the President's office to students and faculty, that President Joe Chapman will resign as President of NDSU affective Jan 2, 2010.
There have been much publicity about some of the problems relating to the cost over run of a Presidents home that was being built with NDSU Foundation money. The home's current estimated costs to complete will be in excess of 2 million dollars. One million dollars was approved by the State Board of Education. Also Mrs Chapan has been on the foundation payroll for an annual salary of $50,000, with her job description of being an Ambassador for NDSU. Lastly there were complaints about President Chapman's trip to Washington DC for the inagural of President Obama. The trip cost 22,000 dollars and not sure of all the details. None the less the Fargo Forum will be loaded with news tomorrow.

President Chapman was to appear before the equivalent of the Board of Regents on Friday to explain some of these issues and questions raised. I thought President Chapman was a very dynamic leader and had done a great deal for NDSU, but apparently he felt he could no longer lead with all these clouds over his head.

I just hope you aren't listening to Joel Heitkamp, he is a UND grad and has wanted Chapman gone for sometime.

It is sad to see Chapman leave this way, he basically faced a trial by media, and it was getting to the point where he just couldn't lead effectively anymore due to all the distractions. His NDSU first style created some enemies, but it was the only way to move NDSU forward.

Nidaros
10-15-2009, 06:30 AM
I just hope you aren't listening to Joel Heitkamp, he is a UND grad and has wanted Chapman gone for sometime.

It is sad to see Chapman leave this way, he basically faced a trial by media, and it was getting to the point where he just couldn't lead effectively anymore due to all the distractions. His NDSU first style created some enemies, but it was the only way to move NDSU forward.

I am into Joel Heitkamp, who by the way has been part of refereeing crews at CAS and has from time to time mentioned that Coughlin has in his opinion the best atomsphere to watch a football game. Its a great place so says Joel, because its outdooors. Also he has commented that SDSU has a great marching band. Normally on political issues I am in agreement with Joel, but on this one I think he has been hard on President Chapman.

Chapman forced UND through the State Board of Higher Education to back off on allowing UND to offer some of their courses in Fargo a few years back and this is what made him an enemy among UND people. If I recall correctly UND medical school was trying to work with the hospitals in Fargo and I believe UND was wanting offer to some pharmacy courses, too, but it was worked out to NDSU favor. Chapman was the winner and a hero that day in my opinion.

Also he did not come to the aid of UND in preserving the logo, and I suspect that did not help his job security either. None the less Chapman had done a great deal for NDSU.

Personally, I too feel its a raw deal involving politics, but it I felt it was of news interest to readers on this board.

The three issues I mentioned are very familiar to FargoBison, as I doubt he is not a reader of the Fargo Forum and nor is he not watching local television.

BTW the story broke during the Mike McFeely Show. Mike went from the Fargo Forum Sports to being a radio guy and he is moderate in his political view, but he got his share of wrath for this story. One caller accused McFeely and Hietkamp of being hillbilies from Alexandria Mn and Hankinson ND, who felt good about bring down President Chapman. I sense this departure of President Chapman will be news for awhile at least in Fargo.

JimmyJack
10-15-2009, 08:30 AM
By most measures Chapman was very successful. In addition to D1 athletics, NDSU is setting enrollment and fundraising records. There are new programs and a huge increase in graduate student enrollment and research funding. Seems like a pretty successful tenure to me.

Raw deal? I don't know. There are some management issues that would be a big deal anywhere. His wife is on the payroll with the NDSU Foundation for $50,000 as an "ambassador." Really? Those funds wouldn't be better used for scholarships? After all, Chapman was making more than $400,000. The President's new house is 100 percent over budget (board of education approved $900k, costs now at $2 million... for a house.) He has a $260,000 annual discretionary fund with the foundation that hasn't been carefully audited. Wow.

So maybe it's time for new leadership. I think 11 years is probably enough for any university president. But you can't take the guy's accomplishments away from him. It was a very successful tenure as president.

Nidaros
10-15-2009, 09:06 AM
By most measures Chapman was very successful. In addition to D1 athletics, NDSU is setting enrollment and fundraising records. There are new programs and a huge increase in graduate student enrollment and research funding. Seems like a pretty successful tenure to me.

Raw deal? I don't know. There are some management issues that would be a big deal anywhere. His wife is on the payroll with the NDSU Foundation for $50,000 as an "ambassador." Really? Those funds wouldn't be better used for scholarships? After all, Chapman was making more than $400,000. The President's new house is 100 percent over budget (board of education approved $900k, costs now at $2 million... for a house.) He has a $260,000 annual discretionary fund with the foundation that hasn't been carefully audited. Wow.

So maybe it's time for new leadership. I think 11 years is probably enough for any university president. But you can't take the guy's accomplishments away from him. It was a very successful tenure as president.

I think you are right on here JJ and thats about what the bottom line is for me, too.

It seems like the president on any campus has to have a place to host social events and I can see the 900k approval for the new home to replace one that had seen better days.
Woodbine Cottage is not going to last forever so its replacement might have been deferred with the recent improvements, but SDSU will face that problem some day. Maybe sooner than we think.

The interesting part of the houses story is one of JJ old bosses, the principal owner of the Fargo Forum donated the 900k which was approved by the Board of Higher Education. How this project got to 2million is still a mystery and had not Chapman resigned he would have had to explain what was going on to the State Board of Higher Education tomorrow, Friday the 16th. Apparently there were major departures from the orginal plan and who made them and who authrozied them remain unanswered but I suspect the answers would all led back to President Chapman. Maybe Mrs Chapman is the problem here. She might be one with expensive tastes. Who knows.

FargoBison
10-15-2009, 12:57 PM
Actually Joe will be at the State Board meeting which is a good thing. He may have resigned but he is out there answering the questions from media today and I'm sure he'll do the same thing tomorrow.

I think a lot of this stemmed from the Development Foundation and them being careless with how they handle money. They did correct this before the media broke the story, I think a lot of this was put in place before Chapman got his raise to ensure that NDSU was remaining competitive with what other DI university Presidents get. Some of these perks should have been pulled back when the state finnally decided to compensate its university president's adequately.

As for the house, I think a number of people can be blamed for that, part of the problem was that the old house was so bad that they might have got carried away in making sure this house was up to what other DI schools have. I know the Chapman's had some input but this was a house that they were probably only going to be living in for a few years as Chapman was heading towards retirement.

I do think Heitkamp really overstepped how a media person should cover something, especially since he has a statewide audience, Joe deserved better than a trail by media espcially one that was presided over by a person that has had issues with him in the past.

Nidaros
10-15-2009, 01:14 PM
If those in charge of the house project thought that they had to meet D1 standards for the president house, they have s#it for brains. What exactly is that standard? If you visited all 350 members of D1, you would find some pretty low standard homes and some maybe some looking good, but they were paid for by donations or some manner of financing. I would think a new home for the president is seldom a popular topic around campus nor is it one where donors are abundant.

Woodbine Cottage in Brookings, was recently remodeled but I suppose it would not meet D1 standards if there is such an animal. Who is going to pay for getting there if the home is substandard. Where they thinking they would be entertaining the B10 Commmissioner next year? Come on. This is a news story!!!

The folks involved seemed to have leap frogged those questions and now they gotten a very good president in deep do-do. These names and firm names of parties involved in the over run need to mentioned as well as we are all responsible for our actions. Those involved in this big mess should not be affored cover from the press. The ambassor salary and plane ticket can be overlooked as they are peanuts, but a million dollar cost over run is not peanuts.

Jacks#1Fan
10-15-2009, 01:20 PM
Good insights FB. Having gone through a similar situation with the resignation of our athletic director (and the resultant stepping WAY out of bounds on follow up stories by the Argus Leader), I understand where you are coming from. Early stories didn't mention, BTW, that the $900,000 initial projected cost was fully funded by a donor, whom I assume wanted to see the President of the University have a proper house to live in and entertain in. And I know that Chapman was only a couple of years from retiring anyway...so I doubt it was "vanity" on his, or his wife's, part.

FargoBison
10-15-2009, 01:25 PM
I don't know what that standard is, I suppose they looked at what other peer schools had and built what they thought would be competitive with those schools. This house probably had more to do with being an asset in finding the next president than it ever was in being what some UND supporters call "Chapman's palace".

A few complications inflated the price somewhat(the flood disrupted the construction timeline), but whoever controlled the money didn't take a step back and realize that this project was heading way over budget. I honestly don't what would have happened if NDSU had come out and said this was going over budget earlier. There were lawmakers that were already livid that NDSU was building a million dollar house in the first place.

FargoBison
10-15-2009, 01:33 PM
Good insights FB. Having gone through a similar situation with the resignation of our athletic director (and the resultant stepping WAY out of bounds on follow up stories by the Argus Leader), I understand where you are coming from. Early stories didn't mention, BTW, that the $900,000 initial projected cost was fully funded by a donor, whom I assume wanted to see the President of the University have a proper house to live in and entertain in. And I know that Chapman was only a couple of years from retiring anyway...so I doubt it was "vanity" on his, or his wife's, part.

I thought the same thing when reading those stories about your AD, he didn't deserve that. I really wish Joe would have had the chance to go out on his own accord. The guy did too many good things for the state of ND and NDSU to be forced out like this.

Nidaros
10-15-2009, 01:36 PM
I don't know what that standard is, I suppose they looked at what other peer schools had and built what they thought would be competitive those schools. This house probably had more to do with being an asset in finding the next president than it ever was in being what some UND supporters call "Chapman's palace".

A few complications inflated the price somewhat(the flood disrupted the construction timeline), but whoever controlled the money didn't take a step back and realize that this project was heading way over budget.

Exactly and that is the story. I dont disagree. Someone over on Bisonville mentioned that Joel Heitkamp was a hunting buddy of the former Executive of the State Board of Higher Education, who has since departed North Dakota and I do recall claims that Higher Ed CEO (Cooper?) could not control Joe Chapman and therefore he resigned. Why this CEO had to control Chapman is unclear to me but I suspect there is more about this that is not public.

I was listening to Hietkamp during the time this event of fueding between Chapman and the CEO was unfolding and Joel did not seem to pleased with what was going on and how it ended. If it involved someone close to you and you go hunting with them, then objectivty gets a little hard to handle even on the big voice that KFGO has. I did not know about this alleged relationship, but if true then I can understand Heitkamp motivations a little better.

Also using a new home to attract a new president does not seem unreasonable. I suspect it will all boil down to a few mistakes and those responsible may lose their jobs, which happens everyday in this cruel world.

RabbitObsessed
10-15-2009, 03:10 PM
Good insights FB. Having gone through a similar situation with the resignation of our athletic director (and the resultant stepping WAY out of bounds on follow up stories by the Argus Leader), I understand where you are coming from. Early stories didn't mention, BTW, that the $900,000 initial projected cost was fully funded by a donor, whom I assume wanted to see the President of the University have a proper house to live in and entertain in. And I know that Chapman was only a couple of years from retiring anyway...so I doubt it was "vanity" on his, or his wife's, part.

What stories went out of bounds?

Nidaros
10-15-2009, 03:20 PM
What stories went out of bounds?

The one about the USD fans being overly nice to our former AD. :D :D

JimmyJack
10-15-2009, 03:58 PM
Helpful information here from FB. Thanks. My point about 11 years probably being enough still stands, though. New leadership can be a very good thing. Especially when the prior administration has put together such a solid record of accomplishment to build on.

I assume the donors for the president's new home, per Nidaros' comment, were the Marcil family, owners of the Fargo Forum. Good people who have built a chain of media organizations the right way. And yes, I did work for them in the early 1990s.

SF_Rabbit_Fan
10-15-2009, 04:17 PM
$2 million for a house seems pretty extravagant. Yes, he has to entertain, but go on a parade of homes or two and see what $900K will get you, and tell me you can't build a very nice house for that number. I would guess there are less than 50 houses in the entire city of Sioux Falls worth $2 million, and I would guess all of those were built with private money.

For the record, if Chapman wants to use his own money to build a $2 million dollar house, I have no problem with that. But using public funds/foundation funds is going to rub a lot of people the wrong way. That extra million would have been put to much better use in the form of scholarships or other campus improvements.

zooropa
10-15-2009, 07:46 PM
Problem seems to me that even if Chapman's gone the old boy network remains.

Chapman (or Mrs. Chapman) may have gotten a bit too comfortable with the perks and perquisites of the job, but who's to say whether the next guy won't end up in the same boat---lulled into carelessness by money with too few strings attached.

(which isn't to say that SDSU's 'that's a 95 year old building with 94 years of deferred maintenance' policies have always been best, either).

Hammersmith
10-15-2009, 08:29 PM
Just a quick comment*(maybe more tomorrow if I feel like it).

Everyone likes to call it Chapman's or the president's house/home/mansion as if that's all it does. In reality, it's about 2.5 buildings in one. Part of it is the family residence, but it also has to serve as a secondary office and as a place for small, elite university gatherings. In this case, small is between 5 and 25-50. That includes space for meals and outdoor gatherings with occasional live entertainment. These different needs require duplication of services that drive up the cost significantly beyond a standard home. For instance, you need two kitchens. One would be a fairly standard kitchen with regular(if nice) appliances meant for the family. The other kitchen would be filled with commercial-type units meant to be used as a staging area for catering. Probably with small walk-in cooler and some of those big warming ovens, among other things. You'll also have duplication of bathrooms, dining rooms, informal sitting areas, etc. Even the outdoor areas have to be duplicated. A patio area for entertaining a group of 50 functions as a lousy backyard for small children(young president or grandchildren of an older one), and vice versa.

Now some would argue that NDSU doesn't need that complete of a facility and should have just stuck to a family residence. I think that's nuts. This house will have to last NDSU for at least 25 years without major renovations. NDSU will probably hit 15k next year, 17.5k within five years, and might just hit 20k within 10 years(long shot, but quite possible). A university of that size needs a high-end location to wine and dine big donors, senior elected officials, fellow university presidents, and other distinguished visitors. Before now, there was no location on campus that was suitable. They either had to use an off-campus fine restaurant, a facility too large for the group, or a facility the correct size but not nearly nice enough for the purpose. Now, they can do it all in a beautiful facility within a stone's throw of several of the oldest and most attractive buildings on campus.

Sure, one or two million can build an overly lavish home if all the money is used for the private residence. But I bet less than a quarter of it actually went into the interior private spaces. Probably about half went into the indoor and outdoor public spaces, and the rest went into demolition of the old house and other site prep and infrastructure. I thought from day one that $1 million was not going to be nearly enough to do it right. Since NDSU spent about $2 million and UND spent $1.7 million to do the same thing, I suspect I was right.


*okay, maybe not quite so quick

gojacksgo
10-15-2009, 08:37 PM
Excellent information Hammer. When did UND build their president's house? Has it been in the recent years?

FargoBison
10-15-2009, 08:42 PM
Excellent information Hammer. When did UND build their president's house? Has it been in the recent years?

They just finished their home as well. The owner of Forum Communications donated $1 million to both campuses to build new houses.

Both originally had budgets of just under $1 million.

FargoBison
10-15-2009, 08:48 PM
This is what makes me mad, NDSU has been ripped apart for this and a certain school up North has basically been given a pass.....


All in all, UND spent $263,800 in public funds, 42 percent of which came from state appropriations and tuition. The rest came from locally-generated revenue, such as leases and royalty income. NDSU spent $574,000 in public funds, none of which came from appropriations or tuition. Nearly all came from local revenue.

Heitkamp and the UND grads in the state legislature don't even acknowledge what happened over at their beloved alma mater.

gojacksgo
10-15-2009, 09:38 PM
This is what makes me mad, NDSU has been ripped apart for this and a certain school up North has basically been given a pass.....



Heitkamp and the UND grads in the state legislature don't even acknowledge what happened over at their beloved alma mater.


Interesting as well. Seems there is a bias because on bisonville another poster had several quotes from many regents members and legislatures, and a couple went as far as to say that the house was the only reason he was fired.

Here is just one of them:


North Dakota Rep. Bob Skarphol, R-Tioga, said he’d like to see a new NDSU president “more grounded in North Dakota tradition.”

In the wake of Chapman’s resignation, Skarphol said it’s clear that higher education needs to be more transparent. He said the state’s universities have about 5,400 fiscal accounts, more than 5,000 more than the rest of state government combined.

“Any auditor will have extreme difficulty finding the path of the money,” said Skarphol, chairman of the House Higher Education Committee, adding about Chapman’s recent controversy: “A $1 million house was excessive in my mind; a $2 million house is grossly excessive.”

Taken from Bisonville

Link: http://www.bisonville.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18009

zooropa
10-15-2009, 09:39 PM
The other kitchen would be filled with commercial-type units meant to be used as a staging area for catering. Probably with small walk-in cooler and some of those big warming ovens, among other things. You'll also have duplication of bathrooms, dining rooms, informal sitting areas, etc. Even the outdoor areas have to be duplicated. A patio area for entertaining a group of 50 functions as a lousy backyard for small children(young president or grandchildren of an older one), and vice versa.
Compare the new & old governor's mansions in Pierre for a similar example.

At SDSU, Tompkins Alumni Center can provide similar services, and SDSU may opt to improve Tompkins to provide hospitality services on the level of the president's residence in Fargo. I don't see SDSU ever tearing down Woodbine Cottage, it's not readily repurposed for any other use, and it's just been invested in. The Alvilda Myre Sorenson/UPD building would probably go first...

Nidaros
10-15-2009, 10:07 PM
Just a quick comment*(maybe more tomorrow if I feel like it).

Everyone likes to call it Chapman's or the president's house/home/mansion as if that's all it does. In reality, it's about 2.5 buildings in one. Part of it is the family residence, but it also has to serve as a secondary office and as a place for small, elite university gatherings. In this case, small is between 5 and 25-50. That includes space for meals and outdoor gatherings with occasional live entertainment. These different needs require duplication of services that drive up the cost significantly beyond a standard home. For instance, you need two kitchens. One would be a fairly standard kitchen with regular(if nice) appliances meant for the family. The other kitchen would be filled with commercial-type units meant to be used as a staging area for catering. Probably with small walk-in cooler and some of those big warming ovens, among other things. You'll also have duplication of bathrooms, dining rooms, informal sitting areas, etc. Even the outdoor areas have to be duplicated. A patio area for entertaining a group of 50 functions as a lousy backyard for small children(young president or grandchildren of an older one), and vice versa.

Now some would argue that NDSU doesn't need that complete of a facility and should have just stuck to a family residence. I think that's nuts. This house will have to last NDSU for at least 25 years without major renovations. NDSU will probably hit 15k next year, 17.5k within five years, and might just hit 20k within 10 years(long shot, but quite possible). A university of that size needs a high-end location to wine and dine big donors, senior elected officials, fellow university presidents, and other distinguished visitors. Before now, there was no location on campus that was suitable. They either had to use an off-campus fine restaurant, a facility too large for the group, or a facility the correct size but not nearly nice enough for the purpose. Now, they can do it all in a beautiful facility within a stone's throw of several of the oldest and most attractive buildings on campus.

Sure, one or two million can build an overly lavish home if all the money is used for the private residence. But I bet less than a quarter of it actually went into the interior private spaces. Probably about half went into the indoor and outdoor public spaces, and the rest went into demolition of the old house and other site prep and infrastructure. I thought from day one that $1 million was not going to be nearly enough to do it right. Since NDSU spent about $2 million and UND spent $1.7 million to do the same thing, I suspect I was right.


*okay, maybe not quite so quick

As usual Hammer comes here with thoughtful posts and I feel more enlighten by what he has said. I was surprised that Chapman gave up so easy on this media frenzy, but if you are one year in age less than I am (68) and are about to retire why not sooner than later.

I suspect that a thorough explanation will be forthcoming and when all the details are known its likely to be more about NDSU-UND forces clashing in places other than the athletic field. The two institutions do have their differences and affect the Board of Higher Education, the legislature and even the Governor, who also is a UND grad but has been rather silent about the whole matter and perhaps no one has asked him.

It does make you think about SDSU and its current set up. I would agree with Zoorpa in that because of historical reasons, Woodbine Cottage will exist well into the future. What the next president after Chicoine wants for a residence could be an issue. I do recall Peggy Miller was allergic to cats and this was a problem for her since the Wagners had pets that included cats. Peggy could not live at Woodbine and she lived in a motel for a few weeks while Woodbine was fumegated. As SDSU grows along with NDSU in student enrollment and research, future presidents are going to want a new residence or something other than Woodbine. Right now Tompkins is kind of small and works for some events, but not what a President would want or need so who knows what is in SDSU's future. I do know we need to fix CAS.

JackJD
10-15-2009, 10:45 PM
I haven't paid a great deal of attention to the politics of higher education in North Dakota. Perhaps I have some bias for our fellow travelers in transition, NDSU, but it appears quite clear that people aligned with UND really go out of their way to hurt NDSU. Even in some of the darkest days of the SDSU and USD rivalry, the nastiness didn't come close to what goes on north of our border. Things are going on now that can be harmful to the educational institutions themselves and that's not good for the state's taxpayers.

zooropa
10-15-2009, 11:22 PM
it appears quite clear that people aligned with UND really go out of their way to hurt NDSU
I think that's because NDSU has been better run over the last decade or so, and has grown much more dramatically, surpassing UND in enrollment and (probably) endowment, etc.

UND has basically seen its role as 'flagship' called into question, and I don't think that sits well with UND boosters, UND 'lifers', UND alums, etc.

SturgisJeff
10-16-2009, 04:17 PM
NDSU isn't the only campus with a president house problem. This happened a few years back at Eastern Michigan Univ.

Fallon firing just latest chapter in EMU turmoil

By Steve Pepple (http://connect.mlive.com/user/spepple/index.html)

July 16, 2007, 7:38AM

http://blog.mlive.com/annarbornews/2007/07/large_EMU_House.jpgAnn Arbor News file photoThe University House was the center of a statewide scandal in 2004 after then-EMU President Samuel Kirkpatrick spend more than $6 million to build it.


John Fallon's exit (http://blog.mlive.com/annarbornews/2007/07/fallon_says_emu_regents_have_f.html) as president of Eastern Michigan University marks the latest chapter at an institution plagued by conflict and short-term leaders in recent years.

Three years earlier, EMU faced a statewide firestorm when construction of a new president's house went far above budget, prompting a state investigation and the exit of the then-university president.

Next came Samuel Kirkpatrick, a name now synonymous with the University House scandal. After his hiring in 2000, Kirkpatrick said he needed a larger university-owned home for fundraising events and gatherings.
By 2004, Kirkpatrick was at the center of criticism over construction of the $6 million house - built on Hewitt Road near Rynearson Stadium - which a state investigation determined cost $2.5 million more than originally announced.
Kirkpatrick resigned in June 2004 with a departure package totaling $514,000. The resignation and buyout - which included a clause preventing regents or Kirkpatrick from criticizing each other - drew intense criticism. He left to take a job as a senior fellow with the American Association of State Colleges and Universities in Washington, D.C., the same organization he worked for before coming to EMU.

JimmyJack
10-16-2009, 06:53 PM
NDSU isn't the only campus with a president house problem. This happened a few years back at Eastern Michigan Univ.

Fallon firing just latest chapter in EMU turmoil

By Steve Pepple (http://connect.mlive.com/user/spepple/index.html)

July 16, 2007, 7:38AM

http://blog.mlive.com/annarbornews/2007/07/large_EMU_House.jpg


Holy crap. I understand that a university president needs a place to host events, but... holy crap.

filbert
10-16-2009, 06:56 PM
I've stayed in major-chain hotels that were smaller than that . . .

Nidaros
10-17-2009, 02:28 PM
The Fargo Forum reported that the State Board of Education voted to authorize a full audit of the President House project at NDSU. So the details will explain what went wrong on this project. Auditors and accountants often have the job of counting dead bodies and I can believe it is appropriate here. I did not want to post the links from Fargo Forum but there apparently is some finger pointing between Chapman and the Foundation Vice President of Developement already.

The Eastern Michigan University incident kind of drawfs the NDSU in depth of scandal. Quite a house at EMU. To think the guy who was mostly responsible for the overuns left town with a half of million bucks settlement money in his pocket. Good lawyers are people we should all know.:D

Hammersmith
10-18-2009, 01:42 PM
The Grand Forks Herald just might have the best reporter in the Dakotas. He's a young Seattle transplant named Tu-Uyen Tran, and he's covered the GF city government beat for several years as well as the non-athletic UND beat for about two years after the Herald was forced to downsize a bit. His articles are good, but his blog might be even better. In it, he adds his opinions and personal conclusions that don't belong in a print article. Since he's insightful and doesn't carry the baggage of having grown up in the area, his opinions are refreshingly rational.

Anyway, I bring all that up because Tran weighed in on the issue on his blog after Chapman resigned. Tran took the info released, talked to some people, and came to conclusions that were based on reasoning rather than the emotional responses that came from most of the other local media. There were many mistakes made, but most were honest or, at least, honestly meant, if a little foolish. Ego, arrogance or corruption played little, if any, role despite what other talking heads tried to portray.

Follow the link at the bottom for more detailed info, but here's the short version. Both universities independently believed that stuff like landscaping, parking lots, and site prep did not fall under the $900,000 cap set by the SBoHE. You can read the rationale in detail over there, but I can understand where they were coming from. NDSU got into worse trouble because they believed they were going to get more in donated materials and services than they actually did. The established policy was that donations of that kind did not count against the cap and did not need to be reported. Since NDSU did receive well over $300k of these kinds of donations, it wasn't totally out of line for them to expect more. Still, they were way too optimistic and got burned for it.

Read more here if you are interested in this kind of thing.
http://www.areavoices.com/gfhcitybeat/

Nidaros
10-18-2009, 04:57 PM
Thanks Hammersmith. This makes a great deal of sense and probably puts in true perspective what is at the bottom of this scandulous issue. Not much!! Obviously lots of differences in interpretation of policy. Maybe at the get go some one needed to get a definition of that what was included in the $900,000 authorization and then went back for a higher number since it was not everything that they needed to include.

zooropa
10-18-2009, 11:13 PM
Not much!!
Meh. I don't know if I'd be that generous.... I think Chapman ends up being the fallguy, but the oversight structure certainly seems like it should be beefed up.

SDSF
10-20-2009, 11:48 PM
I am into Joel Heitkamp, who by the way has been part of refereeing crews at CAS and has from time to time mentioned that Coughlin has in his opinion the best atomsphere to watch a football game. Its a great place so says Joel, because its outdooors. Also he has commented that SDSU has a great marching band. Normally on political issues I am in agreement with Joel, but on this one I think he has been hard on President Chapman.

Chapman forced UND through the State Board of Higher Education to back off on allowing UND to offer some of their courses in Fargo a few years back and this is what made him an enemy among UND people. If I recall correctly UND medical school was trying to work with the hospitals in Fargo and I believe UND was wanting offer to some pharmacy courses, too, but it was worked out to NDSU favor. Chapman was the winner and a hero that day in my opinion.


I agree with Chapman on this issue. I do not think that South Dakota or North Dakota have the resources to waste on having duplicate programs. Unfortunately, Chapman was a bit two faced on this topic. When the State Board of Higher Education director tried to enforce the concept of a system with some of NDSU's program expansion. Chapman went with competition is good. It was at this time that Chapman worked the politcal system to remove his boss - Mr. Potts - AKA Joel Heitkamp's - hunting buddy.



Also he did not come to the aid of UND in preserving the logo, and I suspect that did not help his job security either.


I have no idea why this would be Chapmans issue. This makes no sense - enlighten me on this one.



None the less Chapman had done a great deal for NDSU.

Personally, I too feel its a raw deal involving politics, but it I felt it was of news interest to readers on this board.


If you are willing to play political games as mentioned above. It may come back to haunt you. I do agree that overall Mr. Chapman was a very good leader.

SDSF
10-21-2009, 12:15 AM
This is what makes me mad, NDSU has been ripped apart for this and a certain school up North has basically been given a pass.....

Heitkamp and the UND grads in the state legislature don't even acknowledge what happened over at their beloved alma mater.

You may agree or not agree with me on this one... but in my opinion - Hietkamp and the two state legislatures are being used as pawns by the NDSU Foundation. It is obvious to me that some falling out took place between Chapman and NDSU Foundation and the Foundation went forward with leaking information to the media and legislature to get rid of Chapman. I come to this conclusion based on the almost daily leaks of detailed financial information that only the foundation would have knowledge of and only a state directed audit would provide this type of detail. The information was too steady ...

- Presidents house over budget
- Presidents house schedule too aggressive driven by Chapman's
- Presidents house plan changed to include additional great room that would knowingly be over budget.
- Presidents wife get paid by Foundation
- President Chapman get additional funding from Foundation
- President Chapman has additional credit card annually spending 20k to 40k
- President Chapman take trip to Washington DC for 25K

Chapman knew that he was going to lose this battle with the Foundation. So, he retires and says that he was going to retire in the spring of the 2010. The Foundation has the alumni masses blaming the media and UND. The Foundation gets what they wanted with the removal of Chapman for whatever reason and they have done some damage control on the budget issues.

or

Hietkamp has more power than any of us know and we should all be very scared.

SDSF
10-21-2009, 12:27 AM
I suspect that a thorough explanation will be forthcoming and when all the details are known its likely to be more about NDSU-UND forces clashing in places other than the athletic field. The two institutions do have their differences and affect the Board of Higher Education, the legislature and even the Governor, who also is a UND grad but has been rather silent about the whole matter and perhaps no one has asked him.

Please see my previous post, I think that this was internal NDSU issue and two or three UND grads were simply used as a good cover story. I am not sure that we will ever get the real story. But, I find it hard to believe that Chapman and power that he had in the community of Fargo and the good will he had at NDSU and across the state would simply retire because a house was over budget. We are talking about a million dollars that is peanuts compared to what he had control over as the president at NDSU. It is a simple slap on the wrist and move on unless he lost his power base at NDSU ie the Foundation.

SDSF
10-21-2009, 12:28 AM
I haven't paid a great deal of attention to the politics of higher education in North Dakota. Perhaps I have some bias for our fellow travelers in transition, NDSU, but it appears quite clear that people aligned with UND really go out of their way to hurt NDSU. Even in some of the darkest days of the SDSU and USD rivalry, the nastiness didn't come close to what goes on north of our border. Things are going on now that can be harmful to the educational institutions themselves and that's not good for the state's taxpayers.

Dig a little deeper and you will see that it clearly goes both ways.

FargoBison
10-21-2009, 12:57 AM
You may agree or not agree with me on this one... but in my opinion - Hietkamp and the two state legislatures are being used as pawns by the NDSU Foundation. It is obvious to me that some falling out took place between Chapman and NDSU Foundation and the Foundation went forward with leaking information to the media and legislature to get rid of Chapman. I come to this conclusion based on the almost daily leaks of detailed financial information that only the foundation would have knowledge of and only a state directed audit would provide this type of detail. The information was too steady ...

- Presidents house over budget
- Presidents house schedule too aggressive driven by Chapman's
- Presidents house plan changed to include additional great room that would knowingly be over budget.
- Presidents wife get paid by Foundation
- President Chapman get additional funding from Foundation
- President Chapman has additional credit card annually spending 20k to 40k
- President Chapman take trip to Washington DC for 25K

Chapman knew that he was going to lose this battle with the Foundation. So, he retires and says that he was going to retire in the spring of the 2010. The Foundation has the alumni masses blaming the media and UND. The Foundation gets what they wanted with the removal of Chapman for whatever reason and they have done some damage control on the budget issues.

or

Hietkamp has more power than any of us know and we should all be very scared.

Why would the foundation hurt NDSU to get rid of Chapman? They are the fundraising arm of NDSU and they came out of this looking like a bunch of idiots who don't know how to manage their money. What you are saying they did would only hurt their ability to raise money.

This all came after they limited some of the money they gave Chapman and put into place measures that would better control what was spent.

It would have been far easier to just tell Chapman to retire in peace at the end of the year if they had a problem with the guy. My guess is the press got a piece of info somehow(maybe a disgruntled foundation member) and the Foundation had to cave or look like they were hiding something.

That lead to a media feeding frenzy that Heitkamp had been stoking for months. It was all kind of perfect storm.

I do believe Chapman was going to retire, his state of the university address seemed to hint of him looking back instead of looking forward.

Hammersmith
10-21-2009, 01:48 AM
Just want to clear a couple things up... (another post that got out of hand as I was writing it)

1. Regarding the UND presence in Fargo a few years back:

UND has always had a presence in Fargo because they place a lot of their med students in Fargo hospitals and clinics for their rotations. UND leases some office space in Fargo and uses it as a contact point for those students and a few others. For years, it consisted of some offices and a meeting room or two. A few years back, UND completely remodeled the office to add a computer cluster and additional classroom space. Once the work was finished, UND began an advertising campaign aimed at existing NDSU students. UND denied this, but they placed a billboard three blocks from NDSU's campus on the main route that off campus students use to get there. Also, UND bought ad space in the NDSU student newspaper touting their online engineering programs(an NDSU strength).

The thing that pissed off the NDSU administration more than anything was that UND had given NDSU no warning that this ad campaign was coming. In North Dakota, there's an unwritten rule that universities give warning when they plan to push ads in another university's city. When the story broke, campus presidents from across the state backed NDSU's position that UND was out of line. UND got a slap on the wrist, was ordered to drop the Fargo marketing, and was told to return the Fargo office to it's original function as a contact point for med students and other existing programs(ex: UND has a good masters program for working teachers that many Fargo teachers make use of). The office is still there today and will be for the foreseeable future. NDSU doesn't have a problem with the office, it was the targeting of NDSU students that was the issue.


2. The pharmacy issue:

Around the same time(give or take a year), UND wanted to start up a tele-medicine program. NDSU had been building a tele-pharmacy program for the preceding several years. Rather than build a separate network and incur the related costs, UND wanted to piggyback on the NDSU network. Since NDSU's network was funded through federal grants, and UND was planning on doing the same, UND contacted our congressmen and asked them to combine the programs and put UND in charge. One little problem: During all of this, UND had never contacted NDSU and told them of their plans. The first NDSU's pharmacy program heard of this was when a congressional aide contacted them and told them that separate funding requests wouldn't be needed since it would all go through UND. As you might imagine, there were some unhappy people at NDSU. UND got their hand slapped for that one, too.


3. Opposition to new programs:

There was opposition to several new graduate programs, but the opposition never came from NDSU(to my knowledge). As NDSU tried to improve and expand its graduate school, UND complained the entire way and tried to block many of the new degrees. At a guess, I'd have to say they were successful about 25% of the time. Still, NDSU's grad school has increased by about 250% in the last decade. You should have heard the howling when NDSU added an MBA program and fought to get its business school accredited(business is a UND strength). UND argued duplication of programs, but, really, how many schools with enrollments north of 10k don't offer business degrees?



Moving onto current events, there's the NDSU Development Foundation issue and the conspiracy theories that are going with it. An often overlooked fact is that the entire foundation only meets twice a year and the most recent full meeting was held over homecoming(2.5 weeks ago). The word is that the meeting went poorly with a lot of arguing, accusations, and hard questions. The pump was primed for this because the latest news of the over-budget home had just come out. It was right after this meeting that the Forum started getting info about Chapman's discretionary funds. The simplest explanation is that one or two of the at-large foundation members didn't like what they heard at the meeting and leaked the info to the press. My suspicion is that the info was leaked to embarrass the foundation's leadership, but Chapman got caught in the crossfire.

Right now, I believe that there are a lot of people across ND that are regretting their actions(and more than a few that are celebrating). The governor and most of the SBoHE and legislature all liked Chapman(or at least they liked what he accomplished for NDSU & the state). It was the SBoHE that started the ball rolling with the house overspending, and I bet there are more than a couple that had wished that they had done it more quietly. It was the Fargo Forum that dug hard and kept the story on the front page with inflammatory headlines. Well, ForumComm lost the TV rights to Bison games a few years back and will now probably lose the radio contract as well. I also doubt the Forum will get as much cooperation from NDSU as it did in the past. Finally, I bet the individuals who leaked the foundation info to the Forum are questioning their decision. I don't subscribe to SDSF's theory that it was a calculated plan to get rid of Chapman. I believe it was an example of the Law of Unintended Consequences.



One last thing...

The $22k trip to DC was brought up. For those unfamiliar to the particulars of this situation, here's what happened. Chapman (and UND's Kelley) were invited to Obama's inauguration. NDSU has the use of a private plane that the NDSU Development Foundation purchased several years ago(the DF owns the plane and NDSU pays the DF for its use). Chapman planned to bring his wife and grown children with him to DC. Since they would all be flying on the NDSU plane, there was really no additional cost. Well, at the last minute, the plane required servicing and the needed part didn't get there on time. With less than a week before the inauguration, Chapman needed tickets. As you can imagine, any airline tickets were nearly impossible to come by and expensive as heck to boot. Eventually, the decision was made to charter an aircraft. That charter made up $17k of the $22k cost of the trip. It was probably a bad decision, but I can see how it happened.

On the flip side, Kelley at UND(who had just taken over about five months prior) decided to play it safe and charge as little as possible to UND. He flew coach and his wife's ticket was paid for by a separate UND booster group. Altogether, his trip cost UND only $2k. That was the comparison that put the final nail in Chapman's coffin, IMO. When the Fargo Forum and the Grand Forks Herald put each of their photos on the front page with $22,000 under Chapman's photo and $2,000 under Kelley's, that was all she wrote. The circumstances didn't matter; the only thing that did was the perception of Chapman as an arrogant, wasteful loose-cannon.

JimmyJack
10-21-2009, 06:55 AM
I do not think that South Dakota or North Dakota have the resources to waste on having duplicate programs.

It depends on a lot of factors. Where are the existing resources? Where are the students? How many students are interested in a given program? What campus(es) have the best fit with a given program? Are there local industries that want to support a program? To say we just can't have duplicates is one of those easy things to say that might not work out in real life.

If we're going to have six distinct campuses in our system (a questionable assumption, I would say) we have to give them some autonomy to create programs that make them viable options for students. A hard-and-fast "no duplicates" rule (and I'm not even sure that's what you mean here) limits local campus options and means that as times change, they cannot remain viable.

We're not stupid people. Nobody wants to create another medical school. But should we shut down one nationally accredited journalism program (for example) because there is another nationally accredited journalism program in the state? What if both programs are stable, viable, and successful?

SDSF
10-21-2009, 08:29 AM
Why would the foundation hurt NDSU to get rid of Chapman? They are the fundraising arm of NDSU and they came out of this looking like a bunch of idiots who don't know how to manage their money. What you are saying they did would only hurt their ability to raise money.

This all came after they limited some of the money they gave Chapman and put into place measures that would better control what was spent.

It would have been far easier to just tell Chapman to retire in peace at the end of the year if they had a problem with the guy. My guess is the press got a piece of info somehow(maybe a disgruntled foundation member) and the Foundation had to cave or look like they were hiding something.

That lead to a media feeding frenzy that Heitkamp had been stoking for months. It was all kind of perfect storm.

I do believe Chapman was going to retire, his state of the university address seemed to hint of him looking back instead of looking forward.

I have no idea why Chapman and the Foundation got into it or anything about his pending retirement.. but as I read this thread for the first time yesterday. I was very frustrated by the anti UND tone and that UND was somehow the primary source of the problem. My overall point is that UND had nothing to do with this and it is a internal NDSU issue. I wish NDSU the best and leave UND out of it.

Nidaros
10-21-2009, 10:15 AM
I have no idea why this would be Chapmans issue. This makes no sense - enlighten me on this one.





What I was implying was this might have been a missed opportunity for Chapman. Chapman through actions and reaction probably does have some enemies who by the way represent UND. By coming to UND aid and supporting UND on retaining the logo, he might have gotten UND forces on the Board of Higher education to support him on other issues. I dont think NDSU would have been happy with Chapman if he had came down on the side to support retaining the logo. Sometimes your adversaries can become your best friends against other adversaries. This was not the case so perhaps you are correct in saying it makes no sense.
In retrospect, I regret making this statement as part of my post. I do like the exchange from you and the other Nodaks. Its enlightenment in terms of reading about higher education in North Dakota.

Nidaros
10-21-2009, 11:08 AM
Please see my previous post, I think that this was internal NDSU issue and two or three UND grads were simply used as a good cover story. I am not sure that we will ever get the real story. But, I find it hard to believe that Chapman and power that he had in the community of Fargo and the good will he had at NDSU and across the state would simply retire because a house was over budget. We are talking about a million dollars that is peanuts compared to what he had control over as the president at NDSU. It is a simple slap on the wrist and move on unless he lost his power base at NDSU ie the Foundation.

In all fairness to Dr Chapman, he is 67 years old. He has put in two more years than what most of us would normally do. I believe I read he had planned to retire this coming spring and moving it up considering the mess that is going on, maybe helps NDSU by letting the auditors and accountants count the dead bodies. A bunch of decisions have been made that no one can now take back. Its like calling plays for a football coach. Once the signal goes to the guy on the field, it either works or it does not and you as a coach are either a hero or a goat. I am not denying that Chapman will in the end be found to be a goat on a number of issues and for his sake I hope he will be remembered for his accompolishments. The people in the foundation and in the adminstration of Chapman clearly did not fully understand the limits of the 900k authorization. Also when it became clear, that the authorization was insufficent, Chapman and staff should have been back at the table of SBHE asking for more authorization. Why these things that may now appear simple to you and I were not realized at the time action was taken to implement the construction is beyond me. I fear some hardworking staff people in the Foundation staff may lose their jobs over this mess. Thats unfortunate especially if they were aware of the facts and were not listened too.

I will say this as an interested South Dakotan who spends time in North Dakota, the UND-NDSU rivalry is not dead by any means. Both institutions seem to be large and kind of all by themselves in terms of competition amongst the State Assisted instittuions. For the best interest of each institution they should work together rather than having a pissing match every week or month or whenever an issue arises. With 8 or 9 lesser institutions in ND, the other got be smiling about this mess and hope something likewise happens at UND. These over publicized incidents certainly dont hurt Minot State nor Dickenson State.

In South Daktoa, its somewhat the same situation, SDSU-USD right now have two presidents who known each other for years and have a very civil respect for each other. In fact when David Chicoine took over as president of SDSU, he offered the help of all the SDSU athletic department staff to USD in their transitiion move to D1. I sure that this offer helped USD some although those from USD would say they were modeling UNI more than SDSU in the move to D1.

What SDSU-USD need to do is work with our State Board of Regents to allow multi year contracts for coaches such as Aaron Johnston and others. The state law does not permit multiyear contracts and I suspect some of the Bison Faithful wish ND had that law in dealing with the retention of Craig Bohl since some have said NDSU can not afford to buy out Bohl's contract.

I am sure there are other issues too where everyone could work together. Its regrettal that the President's home project is turning out to be a sort of a rivalry thing when it should not be.

NorCalJack
10-21-2009, 11:41 AM
Also, UND bought ad space in the NDSU student newspaper touting their online engineering programs(an NDSU strength).

The thing that pissed off the NDSU administration more than anything was that UND had given NDSU no warning that this ad campaign was coming.

If UND was buying ad space in the NDSU student paper, how come the NDSU admin was not aware of this? It just seems a little off base to claim that UND gave NDSU no warning, when they must have contacted someone to place an ad in the paper.

Sounds like someone has an axe to grind with UND.:cool:

FargoBison
10-21-2009, 12:20 PM
I have no idea why Chapman and the Foundation got into it or anything about his pending retirement.. but as I read this thread for the first time yesterday. I was very frustrated by the anti UND tone and that UND was somehow the primary source of the problem. My overall point is that UND had nothing to do with this and it is a internal NDSU issue. I wish NDSU the best and leave UND out of it.

I never said UND had anything to do with, Heitkamp going after Chapman had little or nothing to do with where he went to school and everything to do with personal issues. I was just saying there was a lot of ripping of NDSU and little about UND. There are at least a few hypocrites in the state legislature that were running around saying NDSU committed crimes but haven't said a peep about the school they attended that did basically the same thing.

This entire issue does center around the fact that NDSU Foundation didn't know how to manage their money. Chapman resigning had some to do with that, some to do with the media circus that was going on, and probably some to do with the fact that his career was coming to an end so it just wasn't worth it anymore.

FargoBison
10-21-2009, 12:23 PM
If UND was buying ad space in the NDSU student paper, how come the NDSU admin was not aware of this? It just seems a little off base to claim that UND gave NDSU no warning, when they must have contacted someone to place an ad in the paper.

Sounds like someone has an axe to grind with UND.:cool:

The NDSU student newspaper handles its own advertising, I wouldn't be at all surprised if NDSU admin didn't know about it until they saw it when the paper was printed.

zooropa
10-21-2009, 12:45 PM
The UND/NDSU thing really is hard for me to fathom..... The depth of the bitterness really amazes me.

Take MBAs for instance, USD undoubtedly keeps SDSU from having an MBA program. SDSU all but has the faculty and coursework in place for an MBA program. But, does SD really need two MBA programs? A question, IMO, that can legitimately be asked about North Dakota as well.

If the growth of the NDSU business program has been, basically, at the expense of the established UND business program, then, IMO, UND has a legitimate complaint. The SBoHE has basically funded a competitor to a program that it's already funding.

It does irk me that SDSU's liberal arts offerings are somewhat hamstrung by USD's prior claims in that area, but that's about the only area where I think SDSU is being done a disservice by USD. From the USD side, I couldn't possibly figure out an area where SDSU is stepping on their toes. Chemistry, maybe?

Hammersmith
10-21-2009, 01:26 PM
It depends on a lot of factors. Where are the existing resources? Where are the students? How many students are interested in a given program? What campus(es) have the best fit with a given program? Are there local industries that want to support a program? To say we just can't have duplicates is one of those easy things to say that might not work out in real life.

If we're going to have six distinct campuses in our system (a questionable assumption, I would say) we have to give them some autonomy to create programs that make them viable options for students. A hard-and-fast "no duplicates" rule (and I'm not even sure that's what you mean here) limits local campus options and means that as times change, they cannot remain viable.

We're not stupid people. Nobody wants to create another medical school. But should we shut down one nationally accredited journalism program (for example) because there is another nationally accredited journalism program in the state? What if both programs are stable, viable, and successful?

Exactly. Many of the grad programs that NDSU wished to start were either new to the state or were programs that had waiting lists at UND. I remember one in particular because it was in my field. UND had a doctorate in education that had a long waiting list and they had no plans to expand the program. NDSU documented this when they went to the SBoHE with their request for a similar program. The board granted the request over UND's objections and, several years later, both programs are healthy and running at capacity. In general, minimizing duplication is good thing. But there are specific areas where duplication is the healthy position.

Why did I write that previous post? It wasn't because of bitterness or anything of the like. Other posters had brought up half-remembered stories that were inaccurate to the point of reversal. If discussion were to continue, I wanted everyone to be working off of the correct facts. Also, the events I described were really the beginning of the horrible relationship between the administrations of the two schools for the past decade. Chapman and Kupchella were hired at the same time(1999) and they did not get along at all. All the stories came from the first few years of their tenures. Things didn't improve until Kupchella retired last year and Kelley was hired to replace him. All reports since then seem to indicate that Chapman and Kelley were getting along very well and several new cooperative programs were on the drawing boards.

I never disliked UND the institution, but I did dislike several individuals in leadership positions there. I've always felt that Kupchella was a very bad fit for UND. I think Kuppy would have excelled as the president of a 5,000-10,000 student DIII private school that focused solely on academics, or as the provost of a larger state school like U of MN, U of MI, Ohio State, etc. Kuppy had a tendency to focus on academics to the point of neglecting other areas(athletics, research, outreach, alumni connections). You can do that at certain schools, but not at schools like ours(SDSU/NDSU/UND). Chapman's predecessor at NDSU(Plough) was one of these types, and we are forever grateful that he left after only a few years. It's still early, but Kelley has been saying and doing the right things so far. Hopefully he's a good fit for the long run(Kelley's last job was as dean of a med school, so we've got no track record to work from). We(NDSU supporters) also hope that our next president is far more like Chapman than Plough or Kupchella.

Hammersmith
10-21-2009, 01:36 PM
The UND/NDSU thing really is hard for me to fathom..... The depth of the bitterness really amazes me.

Take MBAs for instance, USD undoubtedly keeps SDSU from having an MBA program. SDSU all but has the faculty and coursework in place for an MBA program. But, does SD really need two MBA programs? A question, IMO, that can legitimately be asked about North Dakota as well.

If the growth of the NDSU business program has been, basically, at the expense of the established UND business program, then, IMO, UND has a legitimate complaint. The SBoHE has basically funded a competitor to a program that it's already funding.

It does irk me that SDSU's liberal arts offerings are somewhat hamstrung by USD's prior claims in that area, but that's about the only area where I think SDSU is being done a disservice by USD. From the USD side, I couldn't possibly figure out an area where SDSU is stepping on their toes. Chemistry, maybe?

Most of this was in my previous post, but I want to reinforce it a bit. In the case of business at NDSU, there was more demand than UND was filling and UND was unwilling or unable to expand their program. I agree that one program shouldn't be started at the expense of another, but sometimes there's room for a duplicate program if the demand is great enough. In this case it was. NDSU's business program is growing dramatically and I don't believe UND has felt any major repercussions. There may come a time when the two programs will compete for the best students(UND has a clear lead in this area), but that might actually benefit both institutions as well as the students as long as there are enough quality students to keep both programs full.

zooropa
10-21-2009, 01:47 PM
Most of this was in my previous post, but I want to reinforce it a bit. In the case of business at NDSU, there was more demand than UND was filling and UND was unwilling or unable to expand their program. I agree that one program shouldn't be started at the expense of another, but sometimes there's room for a duplicate program if the demand is great enough. In this case it was. NDSU's business program is growing dramatically and I don't believe UND has felt any major repercussions. There may come a time when the two programs will compete for the best students(UND has a clear lead in this area), but that might actually benefit both institutions as well as the students as long as there are enough quality students to keep both programs full.
Curious. Sioux Falls has an unaccredited business program at USF (at least, last I knew it wasn't accredited by the AACSB--correct me if I'm wrong, somebody), and variously accredited business programs offered by Colorado Tech and Globe University--

Are there similar offerings in Fargo/Grand Forks?

AFAIK, the USD business school is pretty responsive to the community and doesn't really need another public entity competing with it. They've got a few different degree tracks, including a majority online track with Sioux Falls classroom time.

-----

SDSU's chemistry Ph.D is offered in conjunction with USD.

Hammersmith
10-21-2009, 02:12 PM
Curious. Sioux Falls has an unaccredited business program at USF (at least, last I knew it wasn't accredited by the AACSB--correct me if I'm wrong, somebody), and variously accredited business programs offered by Colorado Tech and Globe University--

Are there similar offerings in Fargo/Grand Forks?

AFAIK, the USD business school is pretty responsive to the community and doesn't really need another public entity competing with it. They've got a few different degree tracks, including a majority online track with Sioux Falls classroom time.

-----

SDSU's chemistry Ph.D is offered in conjunction with USD.

According to the AACSB website, USD is the only accredited business program in SD and NDSU & UND are the only ones in ND. There are several private 2-year schools in Fargo & GF that offer business degrees. Also, Mayville State(halfway between F & GF), Moorhead State, and Valley City State(40mi west of Fargo) all have non-accredited four year business programs. UND's MBA and applied econ masters programs have online versions, and I know NDSU was pushing some new online offerings pretty hard here in Fargo(lots of billboards about a year back).

zooropa
10-21-2009, 02:22 PM
According to the AACSB website, USD is the only accredited business program in SD and NDSU & UND are the only ones in ND. There are several private 2-year schools in Fargo & GF that offer business degrees. Also, Mayville State(halfway between F & GF), Moorhead State, and Valley City State(40mi west of Fargo) all have non-accredited four year business programs. UND's MBA and applied econ masters programs have online versions, and I know NDSU was pushing some new online offerings pretty hard here in Fargo(lots of billboards about a year back).
That might explain why there was more of a demand for an MBA in ND than in SD. USF, Colorado Tech, and the Minnesota School of Business will all give you an MBA in SF, and USF really flogs their business program in the local media--it's probably their most well known offering.....

SDSF
10-21-2009, 07:20 PM
Why would the foundation hurt NDSU to get rid of Chapman? They are the fundraising arm of NDSU and they came out of this looking like a bunch of idiots who don't know how to manage their money. What you are saying they did would only hurt their ability to raise money.

This all came after they limited some of the money they gave Chapman and put into place measures that would better control what was spent.

It would have been far easier to just tell Chapman to retire in peace at the end of the year if they had a problem with the guy. My guess is the press got a piece of info somehow(maybe a disgruntled foundation member) and the Foundation had to cave or look like they were hiding something.

That lead to a media feeding frenzy that Heitkamp had been stoking for months. It was all kind of perfect storm.

I do believe Chapman was going to retire, his state of the university address seemed to hint of him looking back instead of looking forward.

You raise fair points and only people with the detailed information really know. At this point, it is pure speculation on my part. But, I agree somebody at the Foundation or the Foundation itself that was leaking information. It will be interesting to see how this shakes out..

SDSF
10-21-2009, 07:55 PM
It depends on a lot of factors. Where are the existing resources? Where are the students? How many students are interested in a given program? What campus(es) have the best fit with a given program? Are there local industries that want to support a program? To say we just can't have duplicates is one of those easy things to say that might not work out in real life.

If we're going to have six distinct campuses in our system (a questionable assumption, I would say) we have to give them some autonomy to create programs that make them viable options for students. A hard-and-fast "no duplicates" rule (and I'm not even sure that's what you mean here) limits local campus options and means that as times change, they cannot remain viable.

We're not stupid people. Nobody wants to create another medical school. But should we shut down one nationally accredited journalism program (for example) because there is another nationally accredited journalism program in the state? What if both programs are stable, viable, and successful?

I agree with all of your points, but the system of the higher education system should be carefully managed. I am not sure that all schools in North Dakota agree with this type of approach and tend to play more of a zero sum game with public dollars. Again, I am not an insider. But, I try to say current on topics. When I read these types of articles, I recognize that the true is somewhere in the middle. But, when you have a state official coming out with these types of comments in public, I get very concerned about the general public welfare and are we being served in an appropriate manner. You couple that with recent activities and you start to see a trend. Who was the person that was difficult to work with?

http://chronicle.com/article/North-Dakota-s-Chancellor/37175

zooropa
10-21-2009, 08:17 PM
somebody at the Foundation or the Foundation itself that was leaking information
IMO, that doesn't necessarily lead to a conclusion that the whole Foundation, or even a majority of board members, or even a minor faction, wanted to boot Chapman.

It could be as simple as a single employee, disgruntled with perceived abuses. And that employee could even be working at the accounting firm that handles the Foundation's books, not necessarily the foundation itself.

SDSF
10-21-2009, 08:42 PM
I never said UND had anything to do with, Heitkamp going after Chapman had little or nothing to do with where he went to school and everything to do with personal issues. I was just saying there was a lot of ripping of NDSU and little about UND. There are at least a few hypocrites in the state legislature that were running around saying NDSU committed crimes but haven't said a peep about the school they attended that did basically the same thing.

This entire issue does center around the fact that NDSU Foundation didn't know how to manage their money. Chapman resigning had some to do with that, some to do with the media circus that was going on, and probably some to do with the fact that his career was coming to an end so it just wasn't worth it anymore.

Peace, I may have read too much into your post. I think the primary difference between the heat that NDSU received and versus UND comes down to two things. UND's house issues are associated with the previous president and as noted in this blog.

With just the home alone, NDSU chose to go over the $900,000 limit, hoping to get in-kind contributions, meaning donated goods and services to make up the shortfall. In-kind contributions, because they don't involve money, would not have to be authorized by the SBHE.

UND tried to hit the mark and thought it had until it discovered that $23,000 in expenses had been mistakenly coded as another project. So now it's over by $19,600.

Basically, NDSU took a calculated risk and the economy turned south.

LINK: http://www.areavoices.com/gfhcitybeat/

SDSF
10-21-2009, 08:53 PM
IMO, that doesn't necessarily lead to a conclusion that the whole Foundation, or even a majority of board members, or even a minor faction, wanted to boot Chapman.

It could be as simple as a single employee, disgruntled with perceived abuses. And that employee could even be working at the accounting firm that handles the Foundation's books, not necessarily the foundation itself.

Yes all of the cases that you have mentioned above could be true... my comment is pure speculation on my part.

SDSF
10-21-2009, 09:29 PM
I was doing a little more research on Dr. Chapman and I found this link interesting.

http://kxnet.com/custom404.asp?404;http://kxnet.com/t/joe-chapman/21016.asp

"An attorney general's opinion today says N-D-S-U President Joe Chapman demanded higher pay and home improvements in exchange for staying in Fargo. Chapman says it isn't true.

Attorney General Wayne Stenehjem issued the opinion today.

He says the Board of Higher education did not break North Dakota's open meetings laws when members discussed the job performance of University System Chancellor Robert Potts.

The opinion mentions a rumor that Chapman wanted Potts fired.

Earlier this year, Chapman was a finalist for the presidency of the University of Wyoming.

The opinion says Chapman had some conditions for staying. He wanted higher pay and improvements to the president's home. And he wanted to get rid of Potts."

SDSF
10-21-2009, 10:08 PM
Exactly. Many of the grad programs that NDSU wished to start were either new to the state or were programs that had waiting lists at UND. I remember one in particular because it was in my field. UND had a doctorate in education that had a long waiting list and they had no plans to expand the program. NDSU documented this when they went to the SBoHE with their request for a similar program. The board granted the request over UND's objections and, several years later, both programs are healthy and running at capacity. In general, minimizing duplication is good thing. But there are specific areas where duplication is the healthy position.

Why did I write that previous post? It wasn't because of bitterness or anything of the like. Other posters had brought up half-remembered stories that were inaccurate to the point of reversal. If discussion were to continue, I wanted everyone to be working off of the correct facts. Also, the events I described were really the beginning of the horrible relationship between the administrations of the two schools for the past decade. Chapman and Kupchella were hired at the same time(1999) and they did not get along at all. All the stories came from the first few years of their tenures. Things didn't improve until Kupchella retired last year and Kelley was hired to replace him. All reports since then seem to indicate that Chapman and Kelley were getting along very well and several new cooperative programs were on the drawing boards.

I never disliked UND the institution, but I did dislike several individuals in leadership positions there. I've always felt that Kupchella was a very bad fit for UND. I think Kuppy would have excelled as the president of a 5,000-10,000 student DIII private school that focused solely on academics, or as the provost of a larger state school like U of MN, U of MI, Ohio State, etc. Kuppy had a tendency to focus on academics to the point of neglecting other areas(athletics, research, outreach, alumni connections). You can do that at certain schools, but not at schools like ours(SDSU/NDSU/UND). Chapman's predecessor at NDSU(Plough) was one of these types, and we are forever grateful that he left after only a few years. It's still early, but Kelley has been saying and doing the right things so far. Hopefully he's a good fit for the long run(Kelley's last job was as dean of a med school, so we've got no track record to work from). We(NDSU supporters) also hope that our next president is far more like Chapman than Plough or Kupchella.

Again, I am not an insider... but, I thought that I would help the discussion with a couple of links

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/137304/group/Opinion/

http://www.bismarcktribune.com/news/state-and-regional/article_92662ac4-72f8-5103-8685-69a74aecf207.html

Nidaros
10-22-2009, 07:37 AM
It will be very intresting to see who is hired to succeed Chapman at NDSU. I just can not imagine the State Board of HE going for a potted plant type president. I suspect the next one will be very dynamic.

Hammersmith
10-22-2009, 12:44 PM
It will be very intresting to see who is hired to succeed Chapman at NDSU. I just can not imagine the State Board of HE going for a potted plant type president. I suspect the next one will be very dynamic.

We're going to find out who our interim president will be either today or tomorrow. The favorite is our provost, Craig Schnell. He got a unanimous vote of support from all the NDSU deans and distinguished professors(that's a group of about 10 or 15 professors that get a couple added every year - it was started a few years back with a group of 6 or 8). Other names that have come up are the recently retired president of Valley City State and Allan Fischer, an NDSU dean emeritus, former NCAA rep for NDSU, and former interim president of NDSU from the time between Plough and Chapman.

Nidaros
10-22-2009, 03:15 PM
We're going to find out who our interim president will be either today or tomorrow. The favorite is our provost, Craig Schnell. He got a unanimous vote of support from all the NDSU deans and distinguished professors(that's a group of about 10 or 15 professors that get a couple added every year - it was started a few years back with a group of 6 or 8). Other names that have come up are the recently retired president of Valley City State and Allan Fischer, an NDSU dean emeritus, former NCAA rep for NDSU, and former interim president of NDSU from the time between Plough and Chapman.

Craig Schnell was on campus at SDSU when I was. I recall being in ROTC class with him but I doubt he would remember me after all these years. Craig would be good choice for interim. Schnell has to be about 65, so I really wonder how interested he would be in long haul job of replacing Chapman. Nothing personal against Craig, but I think you need a real tough guy from some where else who has a few years before retirement and is looking for the challenge that NDSU has to offer at this time. Chapman's replacement is going to take a person with real tough skin, but has the ability to engener teamwork.

SDSF
10-22-2009, 06:35 PM
It will be very intresting to see who is hired to succeed Chapman at NDSU. I just can not imagine the State Board of HE going for a potted plant type president. I suspect the next one will be very dynamic.

I don't think anyone is looking for a potted plant. I think a very dynamic leader with the best interests of the entire state would be great. The state of North Dakota has many reasons to thank Mr. Chapman.

SDSF
10-22-2009, 08:10 PM
Most of this was in my previous post, but I want to reinforce it a bit. In the case of business at NDSU, there was more demand than UND was filling and UND was unwilling or unable to expand their program.

I am not sure that this is true, if UND was willing to take this to the SBOHE. UND would have to show how they would meet the needs of the community requesting the additional programs. I know that UND had a great working relationship with Bismarck and the University of Mary and I believe it was Minot prior to the arrival of Mr. Chapman in 1999. The distance learning courses included Professors traveling to all locations and teaching at all sites rotating throughout the semester. On several occasions, students would travel to other sites for classes. I believe most of the classes were offered in the evening to accommodate the part time MBA students. It was a very unique learning opportunity.


I agree that one program shouldn't be started at the expense of another, but sometimes there's room for a duplicate program if the demand is great enough. In this case it was. NDSU's business program is growing dramatically and I don't believe UND has felt any major repercussions. There may come a time when the two programs will compete for the best students(UND has a clear lead in this area), but that might actually benefit both institutions as well as the students as long as there are enough quality students to keep both programs full.

I believe that having two programs is a missed opportunity for the state to build on a very successful business program. When I was in the program from the Fall of 96 to the Spring of 97. UND had put a lot of recourses into the distance learning center. At first, I was not sure how much I would like the classes. But, I quickly realized that they were the most interesting classes. As I think back to those classes, it was the practical experiences and varied backgrounds of the students that really added to the class room experience. It went from - here are the 'Marketing/Accounting/Finance' principles to how do we apply these principles. The group projects were very interesting because they were real world issues at local companies versus case studies.

I am sure the NDSU is building a very nice MBA program. But, I have to wonder what it could have been and what a scalable asset it could have become for many communities across the State of North Dakota.

Hammersmith
10-23-2009, 01:36 PM
I am not sure that this is true, if UND was willing to take this to the SBOHE. UND would have to show how they would meet the needs of the community requesting the additional programs. I know that UND had a great working relationship with Bismarck and the University of Mary and I believe it was Minot prior to the arrival of Mr. Chapman in 1999. The distance learning courses included Professors traveling to all locations and teaching at all sites rotating throughout the semester. On several occasions, students would travel to other sites for classes. I believe most of the classes were offered in the evening to accommodate the part time MBA students. It was a very unique learning opportunity.



I believe that having two programs is a missed opportunity for the state to build on a very successful business program. When I was in the program from the Fall of 96 to the Spring of 97. UND had put a lot of recourses into the distance learning center. At first, I was not sure how much I would like the classes. But, I quickly realized that they were the most interesting classes. As I think back to those classes, it was the practical experiences and varied backgrounds of the students that really added to the class room experience. It went from - here are the 'Marketing/Accounting/Finance' principles to how do we apply these principles. The group projects were very interesting because they were real world issues at local companies versus case studies.

I am sure the NDSU is building a very nice MBA program. But, I have to wonder what it could have been and what a scalable asset it could have become for many communities across the State of North Dakota.

I don't quite understand what you're getting at, but NDSU started its MBA program in the mid-80's. It would've been at least ten years old by the time you were at UND.



I also made a mistake regarding MBA options in the Fargo area. The University of Mary(Bismarck) has a branch campus in Fargo that offers a 16 month MBA program using night classes(at least it did in 2004 when the article I was reading was written). NDSU is the only accredited business school in the FM area, but Moorhead State is trying. MSUM reorganized its business school in 2005 and Concordia College created a separate business school just last year. Total enrollments of the business programs last year were about: UND-1,800, NDSU-1,400, MSUM-1,000, CC-850.

In the last decade, UND's enrollment grew from around 1,450 to 1,750-1,800. It leveled off from around 2004 to the present, but that's indicative of UND's total enrollment for that period. NDSU's program bounced around between 1,250 and 1,350 during the last seven years before increasing to a bit above 1,400 last year. The recent small bump is probably because classroom space was very limited before the new business building opened up this year. I think NDSU expects to add something like another 500 students to the business program over the next five to ten years now that they have the space.

Nidaros
10-23-2009, 02:10 PM
I don't quite understand what you're getting at...



I dont either, I was lost miles back. Sounds like getting an MBA in North Dakota is as easy buying a box of Cracker Jacks and finding an MBA degree as the prize in the box. :D

1stRowFANatic
03-04-2010, 10:04 AM
More news (http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/270975) at NDSU and Chapman's resignation. Looks like the administration will be dealing with this for quite some time, whether there is really any thing there or not.

zooropa
03-04-2010, 02:15 PM
If events in South Dakota can lead one to the conclusion that the BoR has too much control over what goes on at the regental institutions, I think it is clear that there is, between UND and NDSU a culture of circumventing oversight by the SBoHE.

Neither situation is healthy.

Hammersmith
05-05-2010, 11:15 AM
I don't know if any of you are interested in this stuff, but the ND State Board of Higher Ed just released the system-wide audit on university construction projects. Eight pages of the 29 page document relate to NDSU and four pages are for UND. Both schools had three projects go bad(president's house, president's office and one academic building each). The audit also found the SBoHE had virtually no control over major building projects once they were approved.

http://www.nd.gov/auditor/reports/3028.pdf

JimmyJack
05-07-2010, 06:29 AM
I don't know if any of you are interested in this stuff, but the ND State Board of Higher Ed just released the system-wide audit on university construction projects. Eight pages of the 29 page document relate to NDSU and four pages are for UND. Both schools had three projects go bad(president's house, president's office and one academic building each). The audit also found the SBoHE had virtually no control over major building projects once they were approved.

http://www.nd.gov/auditor/reports/3028.pdf

Very interesting. Thanks Hammersmith.

Nidaros
09-10-2010, 10:24 AM
More fall out from Chapman's resignation.

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/290648/

I also listened to the voice of the Bison station KFGO today, and progressive voice Joel Hietkamp a UND grad spoke with the current president on this matter. Heitkamp who refs football and has in the past spoken highly of Coughlin Alumni Staduim as a place to watch fall football, exposed some of the things that brought Joe Chapman down on his radio show. The current Pres at NDSU, who was interviewed on News and Views, seems more laid back and has taken measures to prevent the findings that were found in the audit report.

zooropa
09-10-2010, 11:01 AM
FIFTEEN THOUSAND FOR TONY ROBBINS SEMINARS???????????



That's hilarious!!

RowdyRabbit
09-10-2010, 11:54 AM
Wow. Just...wow.

Nidaros
09-10-2010, 12:02 PM
I would want further investigation into the lease relating to the NDSU Equine Horse center to the North Dakota Racing association. There has been already criminal indictments relating to the Racing part of it. To get the summer use for $4,000 bucks when the real cost is over 30k smells to whole heaven.

Hammersmith
09-10-2010, 10:41 PM
I would want further investigation into the lease relating to the NDSU Equine Horse center to the North Dakota Racing association. There has been already criminal indictments relating to the Racing part of it. To get the summer use for $4,000 bucks when the real cost is over 30k smells to whole heaven.

That horse park has been a cluster$#@k from day one. I think it was pushed through by some ND state senators. It was a terrible idea, but it was someone's pet project who had a lot of political pull in Bismarck. NDSU should've stayed as far away as possible, but the decision was probably made as a sop to the state leg. The place was losing money hand over fist, and the deal with NDSU was most likey some sort of way to make the place's books look better.

And, yes, the Tony Robbins seminars were an amazingly bad decision.