Bison Chipped

[NoVaJack]

Put this in smack because I'm tired of seeing debates over NDSU's future players in Jack men's bb threads. This is intended as informational, but you know what happens when our friends up north can't help themselves and jump into the chipper (Fargo pun intended) .

IF our Humped Friends make the Big Dance, look for commentators to talk about NDSU men's weak schedule. The story line has begun. Washington Post's mock brackets this morning have Bison as 15th seed in East, facing Memphis. But Post notes that NDSU has "one of the nation's weakest schedules."

The analysis is correct.

Latest RPI has the Bison at 104 (out of 343) with a Strength of Schedule (SOS) of 294. Only WIU and IUPUI have weaker schedules in Summit. ORU (RPI of 127) has the toughest SOS in the Summit at 171.

Jacks RPI is 285 and SOS is 272, fourth easiest of Summit. (As a comparison, Jack women are 28th in RPI and 139th in SOS.)

Of the five conferences with lower confernce RPI than Summit, only one - the last placed Southwestern - has a team leading the conference with a worse Strength of Schedule than the Bison's.

Here are the trailing conferences's current leaders' RPI rankings and strengths of schedule. These may change slightly as fresh results are factored, but they are trends.

Northeast. Robert Morris, RPI of 122 and SOS of 248
Atlantic Sun. Belmont 115 and 238
Ivy League Cornell 117 and 277
Mid Eastern Morgan State 144 and 286
Southwestern Athletic Alabama State 206 and 337


Conference right ahead of Summut in collective RPI is Big South. Conference leader Radford has an RPI of 132 and SOS of 210.

Bison faithful will undobtedly counter the Summit is dragging them down. Not so; Northeast Conference has three teams ranked in the 300s and none near ORU (or IPFW) in strength of schedule. Yet its conference leader played a tougher schedule by nearly 50 points than the Bison.
Bison's lack of non-conference quality opponents has hurt them. Playing Georgia Southern (290) and Northern Arizona (292) twice apiece doesn't build the RPI SOS.

[tjbison]

Re: Bison Chipped

so what, if you make the tournament thats all that matters. playing no-conference games means nothing, but playing you best BBall late in the season does and that game Saturday in Milwaukee, has me more than confident this team can make some noise!

[NoVaJack]

Re: Bison Chipped

so what, if you make the tournament thats all that matters. playing no-conference games means nothing, but playing you best BBall late in the season does and that game Saturday in Milwaukee, has me more than confident this team can make some noise!

What kind of noise comes from a win over a 13-12 team in fourth place in its conference and not going anywhere near the tournament barring a miracle? THIS was a statement win for Bison? Don't think so.

UW-Milwaukee lost by 18 to an Iowa State team the Jacks beat a month later in Ames.

[Hammersmith]

Re: Bison Chipped

Personally, I like using the numbers from Ken Pomeroy. I haven't been following this stuff for very long, but I think he's pretty well respected among the various stat sites(someone correct me if I'm wrong). He's got our non-conference SOS(the part of our schedule that we control) ranked at 100. I can live with that. For our first year of playoff eligibility in a new environment, 100 seems just fine. I wouldn't have a problem with a non-conf SOS of between 100-125 next year because of the unknowns that will come with a completely different starting lineup. Beyond that, I would prefer an SOS in the 75-100 range, but I'll trust our coaches to do the best thing; they know far more than I.

And if you want to use this:

UW-Milwaukee lost by 18 to an Iowa State team the Jacks beat a month later in Ames.

then I'll use this:

UW-Milwaukee defeated #21 Butler (63-60) three days before falling to NDSU (77-69).


I'm willing to call UW-Milwaukee a quality win. Not a top quality win, but a quality win nonetheless.

[tjbison]

Re: Bison Chipped

What kind of noise comes from a win over a 13-12 team in fourth place in its conference and not going anywhere near the tournament barring a miracle? THIS was a statement win for Bison? Don't think so.

UW-Milwaukee lost by 18 to an Iowa State team the Jacks beat a month later in Ames.

all your doing is grasping at straws to take away anything positive the NDSU men have done, this is a great team, that has beaten and ran with their share of Quality opponents over their career. Bad loses happen in ALL sports and yes UW-M is a decent win they play in a conference that has a few very good Mid-major teams, so their record doesn't do justice for what they have done, unlike your Mens team, maybe you should concentrate on nitpicking your crap team before bashing others

[NoVaJack]

Re: Bison Chipped

Hammersmith, good counterpoint, and I would agree UW-Milwaukee was a decent win, a decent matchup for the Bison, and I said so when the buster schedule came out. Glad Bison did Summit proud.
But saying it means that beating a middlin' mid major that won't be in the tournament will make noise in the tournament - not so much. We might agree on that one.

TJ - You've proven again that some Bison fans simply can't debate legitimate observations on a Jacks forum without resorting to smack for no real purpose. I was merely trying to point out the rap that commentators already have on the Bison if they are the Summit representatives. Personally, if not the Jacks, I hope they are the reps, would be great for the newest duo in the Summit. Wasn't nit picking anything, was merely pointing out facts.

[UWMandSDSU]

Re: Bison Chipped

Personally, I like using the numbers from Ken Pomeroy. I haven't been following this stuff for very long, but I think he's pretty well respected among the various stat sites(someone correct me if I'm wrong). He's got our non-conference SOS(the part of our schedule that we control) ranked at 100. I can live with that. For our first year of playoff eligibility in a new environment, 100 seems just fine. I wouldn't have a problem with a non-conf SOS of between 100-125 next year because of the unknowns that will come with a completely different starting lineup. Beyond that, I would prefer an SOS in the 75-100 range, but I'll trust our coaches to do the best thing; they know far more than I.

And if you want to use this:

then I'll use this:

UW-Milwaukee defeated #21 Butler (63-60) three days before falling to NDSU (77-69).


I'm willing to call UW-Milwaukee a quality win. Not a top quality win, but a quality win nonetheless.

Yes it was a nice win. UWM plays in a pretty darn good mid-major conference, with Butler, UWM, and Valparaiso making it to a few sweet 16s. Congrats to NDSU on the win. Can't say that I was rooting for you though.

[2002jack]

Re: Bison Chipped

Personally, I like using the numbers from Ken Pomeroy. I haven't been following this stuff for very long, but I think he's pretty well respected among the various stat sites(someone correct me if I'm wrong). He's got our non-conference SOS(the part of our schedule that we control) ranked at 100. I can live with that. For our first year of playoff eligibility in a new environment, 100 seems just fine. I wouldn't have a problem with a non-conf SOS of between 100-125 next year because of the unknowns that will come with a completely different starting lineup. Beyond that, I would prefer an SOS in the 75-100 range, but I'll trust our coaches to do the best thing; they know far more than I.

To lower the SOS, teams like NDSU and SDSU will have to committ to travelling to BCS schools. Most BSC teams are not going to accept home and homes or even 2 for 1 games. You travel there, or you don't play them at all. We played two this year, Iowa State and Minnesota...maybe we should play one more gaurantee game a year. NDSU played Minn. and USC. Oral Roberts played USC, UNC, and Missourri.

http://kenpom.com/rate.php?s=NCSOSPythag

ORU has the second toughest Out of Conference SOS according to Pomeroy. More Summitt teams need to strive for tougher OOC schedules.

[Hammersmith]

Re: Bison Chipped

To lower the SOS, teams like NDSU and SDSU will have to committ to travelling to BCS schools. Most BSC teams are not going to accept home and homes or even 2 for 1 games. You travel there, or you don't play them at all. We played two this year, Iowa State and Minnesota...maybe we should play one more gaurantee game a year. NDSU played Minn. and USC. Oral Roberts played USC, UNC, and Missourri.

http://kenpom.com/rate.php?s=NCSOSPythag

ORU has the second toughest Out of Conference SOS according to Pomeroy. More Summitt teams need to strive for tougher OOC schedules.

Overall, I agree with you. As a rule, all Summit teams need to improve their non-conf schedule with the exception of those that already have impressive schedules like ORU. This year, the conference tournament and the possibility of the NCAA tournament being new things, allows me to cut NDSU(and SDSU had they been ready) some slack. It's the same reason I didn't have a problem with Austin Peay and CCSU as our OOC FCS games this year. Next year, I'm okay with an even worse OOC in basketball for the Bison because we are going to need a lot of cupcakes to figure out a new lineup and establish teamwork with all our seniors gone. After that(2010-11 onward), I want to see NDSU's OOC schedule improve to around 75 or below. No matter what the situation, I never want to see our OOC SOS rise above 150.

[NoVaJack]

Re: Bison Chipped

Overall, I agree with you. As a rule, all Summit teams need to improve their non-conf schedule with the exception of those that already have impressive schedules like ORU. This year, the conference tournament and the possibility of the NCAA tournament being new things, allows me to cut NDSU(and SDSU had they been ready) some slack. It's the same reason I didn't have a problem with Austin Peay and CCSU as our OOC FCS games this year. Next year, I'm okay with an even worse OOC in basketball for the Bison because we are going to need a lot of cupcakes to figure out a new lineup and establish teamwork with all our seniors gone. After that(2010-11 onward), I want to see NDSU's OOC schedule improve to around 75 or below. No matter what the situation, I never want to see our OOC SOS rise above 150.

Scheduling decent Midwestern mid majors rather than Northern Arizona twice would accomplish both your goals, I think, Hammersmith. At some point to be decent D-1 progras, both Dakota schools are going to have to compete with the UNIs and the Creightons UW-Green Bays and UW-Milwaukees in out-of-conference scheduling year-in- year-out. (and Montana teams, too, if they'll keep their contracts).

[Nidaros]

Re: Bison Chipped

Scheduling decent Midwestern mid majors rather than Northern Arizona twice would accomplish both your goals, I think, Hammersmith. At some point to be decent D-1 progras, both Dakota schools are going to have to compete with the UNIs and the Creightons UW-Green Bays and UW-Milwaukees in out-of-conference scheduling year-in- year-out. (and Montana teams, too, if they'll keep their contracts).

I am with you here NoVaJack, other than Montana, the Big Sky is not that great of a bb conference. If its about competition and moving up in RPI as a group then they need to go out and get the best they can on their schedule. Seems like in the process they can collect some guarentee money, which no one would turn down. I think we need to get the best and so does NDSU. They have not really been aggressive scheduling especially since Saul took over, but then Miles probably did bust his telephone budget in scheduling either in those first two years of the transition. But for the time, Miles might have made the right decision. We are now approaching year 6 or is 7, and its a completely different situation. SDSU and NDSU both need to get on the telephone and find out what is available in teams with and RPI of 50 or better. Just my 2 cent.