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sdman
11-24-2004, 10:43 AM
In the past year I have read many posts about the weakened NCC that reflected an attitude of almost glee that it was in decline. I am happy that we are striving for bigger and better things but in no way do I want the NCC to die. First of all living in SF,SD I like to go to an occasional Augie game when we are out of town but more importantly I think it is important for our legacy that the league stays at least viable and hopefully strong in the future. We had a long glorious history in that league and it would be sad if that ends anytime soon. Sometimes when I read posts it amazes me that people are now thumbing their noses at the NCC. I have nothing against the remaining schools and I would hope they would have nothing against sdsu for moving up.

JACKGUYII
11-24-2004, 12:14 PM
I'm certainly not on the sidelines hoping the NCC goes away. I would term my current attitude towards the NCC as indifferent. While the Jacks had a long prosperous relationship with the NCC those memories will remain regardless of who is playing in that conference. I am dissapointed in the current members and former NCC comissioner Mike Marcil who lacked the vision to explore moving the whole conference up to DI when the leadership at SDSU and NDSU were advocating such a move. Interesting that Marcil takes off and leaves soon after the departures of NDSU and SDSU. The sad state of the NCC is that a majority of it's members have made hockey their primary sport and everything else is treated by the fans and administration like a club sport. I too enjoy going to an Augie basketball game once in a while but not because they are in the NCC.

Alumguy
11-24-2004, 01:01 PM
Some stuff to ponder:

In 1921, at a meeting in Chicago, South Dakota State, UND, North Dakota Agricultural College (NDSU), College of St. Thomas, Creighton, and Michigan A & M met to talk about a new conference. By 1922, Michigan A & M dropped out of the discussions. Four other colleges entered the picture: USD, Morningside, Des Moines University and Nebraska Wesleyan. These teams were considered the charter members of the North Central Conference. (It's interesting to note that only 2 of the original 9 schools are still members)

In 1926, Des Moines University withdrew, followed by by the departure of St. Thomas and Creighton in 1928.

In 1934, Iowa State Teachers College (now UNI) and Omaha University (now UNO) came on board. In 1942, Augustana was admitted.

In 1946, Omaha University withdrew. They came back 30 years later, in 1976. Also in 1976, Mankato dropped football and because of this were forced to withdraw from the conference. Mankato had joined the NCC in 1968.

Northern Iowa (UNI) left the conference in 1978. Northern Colorado gained membership in 1978. Mankato realized its mistake, brought back football, and came back into the conference in 1981. St. Cloud State became a member in 1981.

I guess the moral of the story is that the North Central Conference has had significant comings and goings in its history.

OK_Jackrabbit
11-24-2004, 03:19 PM
The NCC will never again be what it was for the past 20 years or so. The three schools that have left so far cannot be replaced with equivalent programs. They just don't exist in the region. UMD is a good school, but it's not equivalent to NDSU or SDSU. WIth UND likely to leave soon, that means one more school that cannot be replaced with an equivalent program. I think it would be great if Winona State, Nebraska-Kearney, Northern State, and possibly even Southwest Minnesota State would join the NCC in the coming years. That would make for a very competitive Division II league.

By the way, much of the mockery of the NCC came in response to USD fans touting their football record over the last few months. So I think maybe the target of the mockery was USD and not the NCC itself.

Jack
11-25-2004, 06:59 AM
Northern Iowa had the most successful program in the NCC before it left.

MilwaukeeJacksAlum
11-29-2004, 11:17 AM
Nebraska Omaha was and may still be trying to get out of the NCC. If my memory serves me, their request to join conferences with NW Missouri State was denied.

Texas_Jacks_Fan
11-29-2004, 12:45 PM
They (UNO) will keep trying to get into the MIAA.
When UND leaves for D1 - the NCC will be sunk.

UND will go D1
St Cloud, Minnesota St, and UMD will go to the NSIC and form divisions.
Augie will drop to NAIA
USD will go D3
UNO will finally gain acceptance to the MIAA

This is not a far out scenario.

SCSU
11-29-2004, 05:10 PM
They (UNO) will keep trying to get into the MIAA.
When UND leaves for D1 - the NCC will be sunk.

UND will go D1
St Cloud, Minnesota St, and UMD will go to the NSIC and form divisions.
Augie will drop to NAIA
USD will go D3
UNO will finally gain acceptance to the MIAA

This is not a far out scenario.

Good, then SCSU can renew old NSIC rivalrys and no more long trips to UNO or USD. A Minnesota only DII conference with
SCSU BSU WSU CSP MSUM SWS UMD WSU. Fine with me!

coyotefanatic
12-06-2004, 02:48 PM
Let's be a little bit realistic about this. First and foremost, I hope I sense some sarcasm that USD is going to the GPAC. Come on, that's like saying SDSU is going to the Big 10...we all know those things aren't happening...at least in the next 50 years. The truth is the NCC completely hinges on UND...that's no secret. If it should happen the following will likely occur. Minnesota-State and St. Cloud State will form an all-Minnesota conference with Winona State, MSU-Moorhead, Bemidji State, and Southwest State (also could include Crookston, CSP, and Duluth if they decide to make it an all-inclusive Minnesota conference, however, I have heard that they were going to form one with just the STATE schools). What happens next could be a bunch of other scenarios. Augie could look long and hard at NAIA or DIII, or they could fight to stay at DII like all of the other schools would. One scenario I have heard from some officials in the NCC would be to completely start over and form a conference with Northern State, Minnesota-Duluth, Augustana, Michigan Tech, Northern Michigan, UNO, CSP, and USD. I can't imagine what that would be like...first and foremost weird, and secondly I am not sure if that really makes sense on top of it. The other scenario would be for USD to make a pitch to become the "Northern Colorado" of the MIAA or the RMAC...both are likely long shots...beyond that USD could entertain the DI thing again but without a conference...and they would certainly be without one...and without the town to support it...that would be the last option at best. After looking at UND's gusses for what it would take financially to support the move to Division One I cannot fathom what it would take and what kind of a struggle it would be for the state of South Dakota to support two Division One programs that exist in towns that don't measure up to Fargo and Grand Forks.

MilwaukeeJacksAlum
12-06-2004, 03:33 PM
Impressive well thought out post, coyotefanatic. Are you sure you didn't go to SDSU? Maybe for a semester or something? Maybe you slept through you classes at USD. There has to be an explanation?!?

P.S. - I kid because I care. It was actually a good post. Shares many of my thoughts on the future of USD. I don't see USD suddenly falling into the abyss, although their situation is not an enviable one. Looking ahead to joining a conference with NSU and the rest of the NSIC is akin to looking forward to a trip to the dentist, especially since just two years ago the NCC was the premier conference in D-II (IMO). Not good times in USDville. Bad times.

OK_Jackrabbit
12-06-2004, 06:24 PM
I don't really understand the advantage of an exclusively Minnesota conference. I think they'd be crazy not to include USD in their plans. I'm not a fan, but USD has solid DII athletic programs.

Johnson55
12-07-2004, 07:05 AM
Long time reader, First time poster. USD will never go Division 1. Augie will never go NAIA. I think the NCC will become much stronger once Roger Thomas (UND AD) is named NCC Commissioner later this month. A very wise move by the NCC to bring someone with a strong voice at UND. People must always remember that UND has hockey and in reality, UND doesn't care half as much about any of the other sports. USD and more importantly Vermillion can't support Division 1 (I am not sure Brookings can either for that matter).

I see the NCC adding Winona State and perhaps two other schools to form an 8-10 team conference. We will just have to wait and see.

jackmd
12-07-2004, 07:42 AM
Long time reader, First time poster. USD will never go Division 1. Augie will never go NAIA. I think the NCC will become much stronger once Roger Thomas (UND AD) is named NCC Commissioner later this month. A very wise move by the NCC to bring someone with a strong voice at UND. People must always remember that UND has hockey and in reality, UND doesn't care half as much about any of the other sports. USD and more importantly Vermillion can't support Division 1 (I am not sure Brookings can either for that matter).

I see the NCC adding Winona State and perhaps two other schools to form an 8-10 team conference. We will just have to wait and see.

On occasion, I cover the hospital over in Winona. I know there has been some interest from the NCC but I do not get the feeling that WSU has been all that receptive. Their recent success in the NSIC has them pretty satisfied with their regional reputation and recruiting ability. Unless things change, I don't expect Winona to be an NCC team.

There will be wholesale changes in the NCC in the next several years, no doubt about that.

91rabbit
12-07-2004, 07:54 AM
Many good points, Johnson55.

I think that a MN based conglomerate of NCC and NSC leftovers would be a fine successor to these two conferences. Winona especially has bigger and better things in mind for the future. They consider themselves the elite of the NSC (rightly so) and have vivid memories of recent playoff losses to UND. They will jump at the next opportunity to join the remainder of the NCC in whatever form it takes.

Another school to watch is Bemidji. Their football is on an upswing and they have had reasonable success (especially offensively) in recent years. One could make a similar argument about BSU regarding hockey as I agree that UND cares about nothing except hockey (and BSU now has D1 hockey as well). The rest of the NSC is iffy and may not be able to make any moves upward (unless forced to if the current conference dissolves to join a rump NCC in some way).

As I have previously expressed my distaste for badmouthing the once great NCC and SDSU's glorious affiliation with the conference, I would also caution against being dismissive of the NSC. Sure, it never reached the caliber of the NCC, but, nonetheless, it has its strong selling points. I attended BSU for one year 20 yrs ago. The head FB coach at the time had D1 playing and coaching experience as did some assistants. One star player was slated for a full ride to UCLA prior to getting cancer. Former SDSU assistant Trent Baalke was a BSU player that year (and a holy terror on the field). The athletic ability of many players was staggering. The aerobic conditioning demanded by the staff was light years ahead of SDSU at the time.

I think that the aforementioned conference arrangement would be a good one for both USD and Augie to consider.

MilwaukeeJacksAlum
12-07-2004, 08:12 AM
Trent Baalke is still a holy terror! Haven't heard that name for a while. One of the best coaches I've ever been around.

ActionJack
12-07-2004, 08:14 AM
I'll say this again, when NDSU & SDSU announced they were leaving the NCC an open invitation was made to NSIC, RMAC and other schools in the area to join. UMD was the only on that even responded. What makes anyone on this board think that any of those schools would want to join the NCC now. There is no stability, little to envy, and increased travel potential. Winona State may be the cream of the football crop in the NSIC, and they made the playoffs based on the year they had. The tide has changed because not to long ago an either 10-1 or 9-2 Winona team was left out of the playoffs because of the apparent lack of competition they played and more teams from the NCC got in. It would appear that in some peoples eyes the NCC is a little less respected.

Rather than thinking NSIC teams will be busting down the door to get into the NCC, shouldn't there be a concern that St. Cloud and Mankato could bolt for the NSIC, where they both have ties.

91rabbit
12-07-2004, 08:19 AM
I'll say this again, when NDSU & SDSU announced they were leaving the NCC an open invitation was made to NSIC, RMAC and other schools in the area to join. UMD was the only on that even responded. What makes anyone on this board think that any of those schools would want to join the NCC now. There is no stability, little to envy, and increased travel potential. Winona State may be the cream of the football crop in the NSIC, and they made the playoffs based on the year they had. The tide has changed because not to long ago an either 10-1 or 9-2 Winona team was left out of the playoffs because of the apparent lack of competition they played and more teams from the NCC got in. It would appear that in some peoples eyes the NCC is a little less respected.

Rather than thinking NSIC teams will be busting down the door to get into the NCC, shouldn't there be a concern that St. Cloud and Mankato could bolt for the NSIC, where they both have ties.

Call it whatever you will: I merely predict that what will come out of the destruction of the NCC is the upper echelon from the NSC (namely Winona and Bemidji) assembling with a portion of the NCC or SCSU and/or MSU joining the NSC. In other words, a MN based conference that may also incorporate USD, Augie, UND and possibly the UP schools (Northern/Tech).

jackmd
12-07-2004, 08:21 AM
I'll say this again, when NDSU & SDSU announced they were leaving the NCC an open invitation was made to NSIC, RMAC and other schools in the area to join. UMD was the only on that even responded. What makes anyone on this board think that any of those schools would want to join the NCC now. There is no stability, little to envy, and increased travel potential. Winona State may be the cream of the football crop in the NSIC, and they made the playoffs based on the year they had. The tide has changed because not to long ago an either 10-1 or 9-2 Winona team was left out of the playoffs because of the apparent lack of competition they played and more teams from the NCC got in. It would appear that in some peoples eyes the NCC is a little less respected.

Rather than thinking NSIC teams will be busting down the door to get into the NCC, shouldn't there be a concern that St. Cloud and Mankato could bolt for the NSIC, where they both have ties.

I think there is a fondness for the former NCC that blurs the reality that is the current NCC. Right now, the NSIC is relatively stable as compared to many DII conferences. They have a relative check on travel costs, a say in lowering FB scholarships, several successful pre-season and post-season BB tournaments, and a general respect and rank of order amongst current member schools.

What makes you NCC elitists think they would give that up? What is the benefit in being an NCC member? Increased travel and scholarship costs, reduced influence, future instability, etc.. Doesn't sound too attractive to me.

91rabbit
12-07-2004, 08:40 AM
jackmd:

There is nothing blurring my vision of the current NCC. Like a dead grandfather, my memories are of the the living, breathing being, not the dead carcass lying in the coffin. But reality is reality and I accept that.

NCC elitist? I have been called many things...

My opinions regarding the future of collegiate sports in the Upper Midwest are spelled out in the previous posts and contain numerous twists and turns. How it plays out is anybody's guess but I do believe that the scenarios I mentioned are very viable indeed.

I agree that the NSC is rather stable and content with some minor exceptions: Moorhead's football program is in shambles and UM-Crookston has never been able to compete even in the Northern Sun. Could those two be the sacrificial lambs to make way for SCSU and MSU? Those two joining the NSC probably makes the most sense but all is on the table as I have previously stated IMO.

Johnson55
12-07-2004, 10:49 AM
I'll give you 6 good reasons the NCC is stronger than the NSIC:

Sioux Falls
Grand Forks
Omaha
Duluth
Mankato
St. Cloud

jackmd
12-07-2004, 10:54 AM
I'll give you 6 good reasons the NCC is stronger than the NSIC:

Sioux Falls
Grand Forks
Omaha
Duluth
Mankato
St. Cloud



Based on that logic would you say Brookings did or didn't contribute while SDSU was in?

Furthermore, would Winona, Bemidji, Aberdeen, or Marshall be adequate as cities for the "new" NCC?

sdman
12-07-2004, 11:01 AM
I hope the ncc stays at least viable until we find a conference. I keep thinking that UND will make a move to d1 and the bsc will want und and ndsu and their intense rivalry leaving us out in the cold. That would be terrible but I think ndsu would throw us under the bus in a heartbeat to get und/ndsu. I hope the bsc accepts 4 teams and und can come along for the ride.
By the way I thought UNiv of Mary was going to join the ncc since they are pretty far away from the nsc schools and if und stays they are back to 8 members.

BisBison
12-21-2004, 08:52 PM
I keep thinking that UND will make a move to d1 and the bsc will want und and ndsu and their intense rivalry leaving us out in the cold. That would be terrible but I think ndsu would throw us under the bus in a heartbeat to get und/ndsu. .
und2 can't make up their mind if they want D-I or D-II or if they want a campus in Fargo or not. In short by the time their present admin makes a decision the opportunity would be lost. I can't speak for NDSU admin but most alums are so sick of the und2 sewage's antics of late we'd just as soon forget about them. I personally would rather be hitched up with you guys and our respectful rivalry than the disrespect we put up with from our "friends" from the north.