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91rabbit
12-29-2004, 06:57 AM
Looks like many SDSU fans critical of Kooistra's stance on the D1 move are very prophetic. As a homeschooling father (albeit in MN), you may now count me among his many critics. On a positive note, Keri Weems is an SDSU grad (and wife of former Jack great JJ Weems). Keri was an RA in Binnewies Hall back in the glory days.

http://www.argusleader.com/news/Sundayarticle1.shtml

SDSUFAN
12-29-2004, 10:56 AM
Guess what 91rabbit, I am with Clarence on this one. I have been a big long time fan of Horace Mann and the public school system. If you choose to educate at home, then it behoves one to be up to snuff and not give your own loved ones a second rate education.

D1 and home schooling are two different things and maybe worlds apart in terms of issues. Since Clarence is a school administrator, he just might know what he is talking about when it comes to standards.

91rabbit
12-29-2004, 11:13 AM
SDSUFAN:

Somehow I knew you would bite on this one. In fact, I almost threw out a little bait for you.

Parents are the primary educators of their children. I have a BS from SDSU, my wife also (on a Briggs scholarship I might add). She also has a MS from U of Michigan (remember, where they don't let the local high school play on their D1 field). She is eminently qualified to educate our children. The issue here is FREEDOM. The vast majority of contemporary homeschooling parents are very well educated, well-adjusted folks contrary to the myths and urban legends of hillbillies and renegades hiding their urchins from revenuers and truant officers. Previous efforts similar to Kooistra's in other states have resulted in overwhelming pressure from home educators that will most likely kill any erstwhile legislation before it sees the light of day.

As to Clarence being a school administrator, it appears to be a classic case of cui bono. It only makes sense for a school administrator to want more power. I do not judge his motives; he may very well think that he is acting in the best interest of students. SDSUFAN, answer me this: If schools are so good, then why are so many parents choosing homeschooling as an option? Let me state for the record that I know many good people who have their children in public and private schools and I respect their individual decisions based upon the needs of their kids. What is wonderful about this scenario is that options are available and we have the freedom to exercise those options. Overregulaton of a good thing (homeschooling) will merely turn it into the bad thing those very same homeschoolers are thankfully avoiding.

Rodentia
12-29-2004, 12:08 PM
While I am certain that there are many parents and children for whom home schooling works out great, let's not look at this through rose-colored glasses. I've met plenty of people for whom homeschooling didn't work out, for whatever reason. Sometimes the student would do better in a traditional school, and sometimes the homeschooling parent just isn't cut out for it.

You talk about freedom, and the article talks about accountability. Without standards, when homeschooling fails - as it does sometimes - the student will fall through the cracks.

91rabbit
12-29-2004, 12:36 PM
It goes without saying that freedom requires accountability. The homeschoolers that we are very familiar with engage heartily in both. We know many students who have moved from home to traditional school and vice versa for a variety of reasons. What is important is that CHOICES are available to educate children as is appropriate for the child and time of life.

Yes, students may fall through the cracks. This may also happen in public schools. Maybe Clarence should worry about kids in public schools (seems to be plenty of problems there judging from the media) before he aims his sights on those who have taken up a monumental task at great sacrifice and performed admirably.

I demand the same respect for homeschooling that I grant to those who choose other means of education. Objectively, homeschooling works wonderfully. Subjectively, some kids may do better in a different environment for a variety of reasons. I am happy that options are available for all manner of parents and students.

89rabbit
12-29-2004, 12:50 PM
*The Moderator

Not really smack, but not really "Other SDSU Activities" almost political. I will let it run here for now.

Rodentia
12-29-2004, 02:50 PM
*****
Objectively, homeschooling works wonderfully. Subjectively, some kids may do better in a different environment for a variety of reasons.
*****

You have it backwards. It's objective that some kids do better in different environments. It's quite subjective that homeschooling works wonderfully.

Homeschooling works for some kids, yes. It also fails for others. Traditional schools also work wonderfully for a great many kids, it should be noted.

*****
Maybe Clarence should worry about kids in public schools (seems to be plenty of problems there judging from the media) before he aims his sights on those who have taken up a monumental task at great sacrifice and performed admirably.
*****

Is there any indication that he is ignoring public schools? What about those homeschoolers who do not perform admirably?

SDSUFAN
12-29-2004, 03:03 PM
I not going to respond any more on dear old Clarence. I suggest everyone who agrees and disagrees with 91rabbit and his freedom issue contact him through IM. Lets talk about SDSU and Sports.

1stRowFANatic
12-29-2004, 03:19 PM
If homeschooling is so much better for kids, why do so few people choose it? 91, you said that so many choose it, and granted more people are than a few years ago, but it is still a very, very small segment in society. It appears from the article that the concern is that public/private school kids are going to be judged by one standard, and at this time there are very sketchy standards for home schooling. With the new scholarship programs that are dependant upon standardized test scores, it is just common sense that the administration of the tests be standard. If not, the scores cannot be compared.

My wife and I both have advanced degrees (hers are in education) and we ARE NOT capable of providing the education our children need. Neither of us have the knowledge or experience in science or mathematics that our oldest needs. And further, just because you have knowledge in a subject area does not mean that you are qualified to teach in the area. The most frustrating experience I can recall as a student is being in a classroom with an instructor that I knew understood the material, but could not communicate to the students the process by which to understand the material.

91, it appears your argument is that it works for some, so trust us that it is working for everyone. That does not sound like accountability to me.

Oh yeah, the statement about us not being able to teach our child is mine only and not my wife's. Not going to let this come back to haunt me. ;D

JackJD
12-29-2004, 11:00 PM
91Rabbit wrote: "SDSUFAN, answer me this: If schools are so good, then why are so many parents choosing homeschooling as an option?"

91Rabbit: You seem to be an intelligent fellow. Pause and think about your statement quoted above. You realize how faulty that reasoning is, don't you? You should be a little embarassed offering such a comment.

Let's talk sports.

SoDak
12-30-2004, 01:24 AM
I'd fully expect Kooistra, as a school official and SDEA member, to take a stance like this. Wouldn't want to lose any of his power, money, or monopoly on the education of another generation. I'd like to see a broad test of the capabilities of homeschooled kids versus public schooled children and see how they compare. I'm willing to bet it would be the kids in school in need of the help.

91rabbit
12-30-2004, 06:40 AM
Once again, I am amazed that I agree with SDSUFAN. I will let this die, but not before I clarify the misunderstandings.

Rodentia, I have it right. Objectively, homeschooling is a valid option that MAY work (as opposed to being ineffective, illegal, etc.). Subjectively, it may not be right for a particular child, parent or circumstance. But to make a blanket statement that it is wrong to undertake is itself wrong.

As to blanket statements, I have not said one way or another that different school options are right or wrong, effective or ineffective. I am championing the availability of choices (apparently a very positive thing in our society, correct?) for various student/parent mixes. If public schools work for you, go right ahead. I will not judge your decision to do so; I will acknowledge your right and good intentions in choosing what is best for YOUR child(ren)

1stRow:

Why do so few people choose homeschooling? Because it is D**N hard work. For this very reason alone, if we could find a school that met our needs, we would have our children there. But for now, we know that what we are doing is the right thing. We may find that as our children get older (currently 4th, 2nd grades and kindergarten), what we are currently doing may not be the best option and will decide to place the kids into a "traditional" school setting. We are not homeschool or die; what is best for the kids is our guiding principle. If homeschooling does not work, I trust parents to make the proper decisions to rectify the deficiencies and to be accountable.

JackJD:

I am not embarassed to question the health of public schools. What is faulty with my reasoning? As a public school teacher/administrator/supporter, the pertinent question to ask in light of a growing homeschool population is: Why is this happening? What are we doing/ not doing that may be causing this to happen? Instead, the aforementioned will merely lash out to criticize those to take the initiative and become accountable to themselves and their children (and, unfortunately, sometimes try to limit and/or eliminate homeschooling as a possible option).

I would venture that most on this board have very little direct knowledge of home education and are responding based upon the so-called conventional wisdom and media horror stories about the failures (that do exist!). I know nothing about basketball, hence no posts from me about that subject.

Sorry this got a bit out of hand. I would welcome any private correspondence if any would desire to continue this conversation.

91rabbit

Rodentia
12-30-2004, 06:43 AM
Isn't that "broad test" precisely what he proposed?

JackJD
12-31-2004, 06:41 PM
91:

I was told that you had a comment for me so I returned to the thread and saw your question:

You asked: "What is faulty with my reasoning? As a public school teacher/administrator/supporter, the pertinent question to ask in light of a growing homeschool population is: Why is this happening? What are we doing/ not doing that may be causing this to happen?"

I have no problem with all of us asking questions and scrutinizing our public school system. That inquiry is an important part of keeping the public school system focused on its purpose and function.

The fact that people may elect to homeschool their children does not mean there is anything wrong with the public school system from an objective point of view. Certainly, some homeschoolers may hold that belief (and I support their right to have that belief) but what if they're all wrong?

I suspect there is a significant number of homeschoolers who hold the belief that the public schools have a great deal of trouble with moral issues...that may be their gripe and they are not necessarily making a statement that the "three R's" are not being taught (I know, many will say you cannot separate one from the other). But, that's a belief and is not proof of much.

You asked SDSUFAN: "If schools are so good, then why are so many parents choosing homeschooling as an option?" The tone of your post and your question imply a conclusion: The number of people choosing homeschooling suggests there is something wrong with the public schools. Maybe; but, maybe not. I likely means many of those have disagreements with something about public education but that does not mean that there is something wrong with public education.

Think about this: How many people favored slavery? Did the sheer numbers of slavery proponents make it right? How many people are atheists? How many Islamics are out there? Does that prove Christians have it all wrong? Eight thousand students attend USD---does that mean something is wrong with SDSU?

There are examples of where a majority of people act in some manner and it proves nothing but the fact that a lot of people are acting in that manner!

I know people who homeschool their children for the following reasons:
1. Their children were in a crisis and were beyond the control of the public schools and in a last-ditch effort to save them, the parents stayed home and schooled them.

2. There are places in Western South Dakota where the nearest public school requires a child to be boarded with a family 60 miles away for a week and so people have decided to homeschool.

3. They're mad at the way one teacher handled one of their children (and many feel the teacher was correct).

4. I know people who homeschool but send their children to the public schools for just some classes (e.g. music or computer).

In reality, the number of homeschooled children is statistical insignificant.

Can't we talk about sports?