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usdcoyotes
12-30-2004, 09:17 AM
USD 92
Wayne St 75

Wayne St 82
SDSU 65

Making South Dakota look bad come on jacks!!! Two in a row to D-2 schools at home. All the people on the smack board talking about USD going to the GPAC maybe the SDSU mens basketball team should be thinking about going tothe GPAC :o

Mavericks#1
12-30-2004, 09:41 AM
welcome aboard coyote fan

OK_Jackrabbit
12-30-2004, 09:56 AM
Yes, you're exactly right, usdcoyotes. We're having a bad mens basketball season, so we should reconsider the entire DI thing. Good thinking. Somebody get in touch with the athletic director and president. They'll want to know about usdcoyotes' excellent suggestion. Thanks so much.[/sarcasm]

SDSUFAN
12-30-2004, 10:42 AM
Should be surprised by the usdcoyote post? I for one am not. When SDSU does have success with a D1 opponent, such as Tennessee state, we get this "You should have beat them, they only as good as the NAIA school called Fisk, who lost in a OT to TSU. Then if we get really wacked, then it shows we are a big failure for moving up to D1. Either way SDSU is a failure in the eyes of USD fans etc. To those in Vermillion, I suggest look home ward. I hope that Math professor wins is case and Jim Abbott has to pay out of his pocket.

http://www.argusleader.com/news/Thursdayarticle5.shtml

89rabbit
12-30-2004, 11:01 AM
All the people on the smack board talking about USD going to the GPAC=

The talk about USD going to the GPAC had nothing to do with ability. It had more to do with where are you going to go after UND moves up to D-I, UNO moves over to the MIAA, St. Cloud and MSU-M move over to the NSIC. A logical choice would be for USD to follow Augie over to the GPAC. We were just trying to help. ;)

Go State! ;D

Rodentia
12-30-2004, 11:23 AM
SDSU is meeting reasonable expectations, by any objective measure. Those who mock SDSU are probably aware of this.

Moving to D-I is not easy, but most worthwhile things are not easy. A team moving up to D-I can reasonably expect to play as an independent for a few years and to take a lot of lumps in the transition. Getting a D-I victory in the first year is frankly a bonus.

And, in other sports, SDSU is far exceeding reasonable expectations.

Crashola
12-30-2004, 04:15 PM
Funny how the Yotes fans didn't hit the board with these types of messages when the State football team cracked the top 25 in the Sports Illustrated I-AA poll. Or when the Jackrabbit women cagers went toe to toe with a top 20 program.

Message to USD naysayers -- Don't knock it until you've tried it. Most Jacks fans are very pleased with the transition and excited as hell about the future. So, when you get to watch the Coyotes play Upper Iowa or Peru State or whoever else may be the foe on September 24, 2005, I'll be in Washington-Grizzly stadium with 23,000+ other screaming I-AA fans cheering on my alma mater. Hope you have fun, because I sure as hell will.

OK_Jackrabbit
12-30-2004, 04:54 PM
I hope that Math professor wins is case and Jim Abbott has to pay out of his pocket.

http://www.argusleader.com/news/Thursdayarticle5.shtml

That situation is ridiculous. Universities are supposed to be bastions of free speech and diversity of opinion. Of course we should all be aware that there is no expectation of privacy in email. But to read personal emails, and use them as a basis for terminating a tenure-track faculty member's contract subverts the whole idea of academic freedom. Shame on USD.

jackmd
01-01-2005, 08:17 AM
USD 92
Wayne St 75

Wayne St 82
SDSU 65

Making South Dakota look bad come on jacks!!! Two in a row to D-2 schools at home. All the people on the smack board talking about USD going to the GPAC maybe the SDSU mens basketball team should be thinking about going tothe GPAC :o

We gotta take our lumps here boys. This is more than a little embarassing for SDSU. That said, a loss is a loss and no more than that. Time to get back on the horse. As they say, "A quitter never wins and a winner never quits."

mrsports
01-01-2005, 11:16 AM
That situation is ridiculous. Universities are supposed to be bastions of free speech and diversity of opinion. Of course we should all be aware that there is no expectation of privacy in email. But to read personal emails, and use them as a basis for terminating a tenure-track faculty member's contract subverts the whole idea of academic freedom. Shame on USD.

You don't know what you are talking about. You read one article on the situation. His contract was terminated because he was a poor professor, not because of his emails. I'm glad to see that USD has the guts to get rid of a bad professor, a lot of schools don't. Kudos to USD.

jackmd
01-01-2005, 11:56 AM
You don't know what you are talking about. You read one article on the situation. His contract was terminated because he was a poor professor, not because of his emails. I'm glad to see that USD has the guts to get rid of a bad professor, a lot of schools don't. Kudos to USD.


I suspect neither of you are privy to all the information. Fact, the prof has filed a suit citing violation of his privacy. If the U did this then they have a problem regardless of his ability as a professor.

Are you sure you're a mr, mrsports, you seem to think more like a lad.

OK_Jackrabbit
01-01-2005, 03:31 PM
You don't know what you are talking about. You read one article on the situation. His contract was terminated because he was a poor professor, not because of his emails. I'm glad to see that USD has the guts to get rid of a bad professor, a lot of schools don't. Kudos to USD.


Clearly, you have no idea what you are talking about. First of all, I have friends who are professors at USD, and have heard quite a bit about this case. Second, I'm a professor myself, so let me explain how this system works. There is this concept called academic freedom. It's important because it keeps anyone from telling professors how to teach, what to teach, or what kinds of inquiry is off limits in their research. The tenure process is designed to give assistant professors (do I have to explain rank to you, too?) feedback constantly, and to protect them so they cannot be dismissed because students, peers, administrators or anybody else just doesn't like them. For the first six years of your work, you are constantly evaluated for three things: Teaching, research, service.

There is a third-year review, at which time "bad professors" tend to be let go. I note that didn't occur in this case. What makes a professor bad? Typically students' impressions (like the one you have offered) are not a major part of that determination. Students, after all, want A's, particularly in these days of grade inflation. If they dislike and rank a professor poorly, that would be reflected on each annual review, but it is only one part of a professor's performance. And often it is meaningless since it could just indicate that students are disappointed in their grades. Student evaluations are useful to professors to figure out what they're doing poorly, but they're a lousy indicator of the quality of a professor's work. And it's not just about teaching. Service and research count as much, and even more in some cases.

At a school like USD, teaching is about 50 percent of your evaluation. Service and research are about 25 percent each. I would bet that 90 percent or more of those who go up for tenure at USD get it. The whole point is there aren't any surprises in that sixth year when you have to go up for evaluation by your peers, by the university, by the administration, and by the Board of Regents. If you get to the sixth year, in most cases, you're going to get tenure and be promoted to associate professor.

From what I have heard and read, it sounds to me like there was a personality conflict between this professor and his supervising department chair (also a professor). He has filed grievances and complaints with several organizations, causing the university administration to become annoyed with him. The university siezed on the emails as evidence suggesting insubordination and basically decided he wasn't worth the trouble. Of course that's exactly in opposition to the idea of academic freedom. Why would they have decided to read his emails a decision no organization takes lightly as it scares your other employees unless they were fishing for something to 'get' him with?

Here's why this sort of thing matters: It is already difficult enough to get quality, Ph.D. professors to come to smaller universities with greater teaching loads (three or four courses each semester, rather than two like at larger universities). A story like this gets around in academic circles, and will make qualified people think twice about coming to USD, or staying at USD. They'll see the job announcement, ask a few people who'll tell them there's a problem at USD, and skip it. Or they'll start to wonder who's read their emails or who they have angered and will just go somewhere else.

That would hurt USD, but it would also hurt the other South Dakota schools, since they operate under the same Board of Regents. Quality education doesn't just happen. And universities are not businesses where you can hire or fire as you please (something Jim Abbott, with no academic background might not understand.) This is a free speech issue, an issue of academic freedom, and to me those things are worth defending against the corporate mentality that is increasingly encroaching into academe.

End of rant.

mrsports
01-01-2005, 04:13 PM
I like how professors think that once they get to their sixth year they should just be given tenure. The fact is the students all thought he sucked and so did his department chair. My son got an A in his class but he was the worst professor he ever had and many share his feelings. I don't care the reason USD got rid of him, but I am damn glad they did. Abbott makes the tough decisions that other Presidents don't have the balls to make. The Dept. Chair, Dr. Keller, is a very respectable person and someone whose opinion I value highly. She obviously shares my opinion. If other professors like him are scared off because of this then I see it as a good thing. He was far from a good professor and USD is better off without him.
When did it become academic freedom to complain about your boss anyway. I know if I was to complain about my boss to everybody I probably wouldn't last too long either.

JackJD
01-01-2005, 04:26 PM
You do seem to complain a lot, Mr. Sports.

JackJD
01-01-2005, 04:27 PM
Mr. Sports: take your USD internal staffing problems to your USD smack board.

Let's play ball.

mrsports
01-01-2005, 04:33 PM
Mr. Sports: take your USD internal staffing problems to your USD smack board.

Let's play ball.

I gladly will. Do notice that I wasn't the one who brought this topic up. I figured it would be free game to talk about whatever you guys were talking about in this thread. You had a good point that this shouldn't be talked about here, I think you just addressed it to the wrong person though. Tell the person who posted it here in the first place.

OK_Jackrabbit
01-01-2005, 04:47 PM
The fact is the students all thought he sucked and so did his department chair. My son got an A in his class but he was the worst professor he ever had and many share his feelings. . . .
When did it become academic freedom to complain about your boss anyway. I know if I was to complain about my boss to everybody I probably wouldn't last too long either.

Here's a quick, textbook definition of academic freedom that might help you understand why pressure from donors, the level of annoyance on the part of the cable-television-mogul/university-president or some students' assertions that a professor "sucks" might not be a good ways to determine whether a tenure-track professor stays or goes:

"Academic freedom is the opportunity for teachers and students to learn, teach, study, research, and question without censorship, coercion, or external political and other restrictive influence."

I could explain how faculties are self-governing and exist essentially as distinct units separate from the central administration of a university. I could explain how department chairs are just professors chosen to handle administrative duties and not "bosses" with hiring and firing powers. I could explain how free speech, including the freedom to criticize your supervisor or somebody else's research, or the administration of the university itself, is a basic tenet of academe.

I'll stop, though, since the First Amendment seems important to you only if it doesn't infringe on your child's enjoyment of college.

I brought this up as an aside on this thread. But I wanted to answer mrsports uninformed opinion not because I care what he thinks, but because this kind of thing can impact SDSU, and I care about that. People will pass on jobs at South Dakota universities if this sort of thing takes hold.

Let's talk sports.

mrsports
01-01-2005, 05:32 PM
Here's a quick, textbook definition of academic freedom that might help you understand why pressure from donors, the level of annoyance on the part of the cable-television-mogul/university-president or some students' assertions that a professor "sucks" might not be a good ways to determine whether a tenure-track professor stays or goes:

"Academic freedom is the opportunity for teachers and students to learn, teach, study, research, and question without censorship, coercion, or external political and other restrictive influence."

I could explain how faculties are self-governing and exist essentially as distinct units separate from the central administration of a university. I could explain how department chairs are just professors chosen to handle administrative duties and not "bosses" with hiring and firing powers. I could explain how free speech, including the freedom to criticize your supervisor or somebody else's research, or the administration of the university itself, is a basic tenet of academe.

I'll stop, though, since the First Amendment seems important to you only if it doesn't infringe on your child's enjoyment of college.

I brought this up as an aside on this thread. But I wanted to answer mrsports uninformed opinion not because I care what he thinks, but because this kind of thing can impact SDSU, and I care about that. People will pass on jobs at South Dakota universities if this sort of thing takes hold.

Let's talk sports.

I like how you go on another page long rant about why USD should have retained the crappy professor and then finish it up with "lets talk sports." The bottom line is USD got rid of a bad professor. You can criticize them all you want and go into your long rants about academe, but the fact of the matter is he was a bad professor and USD got rid of him. Now lets see if you can follow your own advice and talk sports.

jackrabbit1979
01-02-2005, 12:08 AM
How do you like those apples Mr. Sports.
My friend (OK JACK) is wicked smart.

*****The above was said with a heavy Bostonian Accent
for all you movie buffs.

SDSUFAN
01-02-2005, 05:40 AM
Ok Rabbit:
Thanks for your explanation of academic freedom. I dont think the professor has a frivilous law suit here at all.
I would suggest that the Board of Regents check their bank account and prepare for liquidated damages.

This happen once before when their incompetent AD(Jack Doyle) fired several women's coaches, and the BOR had to pony up liquid damages then when the fired coaches took USD to court. Go to the archives of the Yankton Press and Dakotan and you find the press on that affair.

I would rather talk sports, but I think the USD community needs a turn in the barrel, as they have had a free ride with the negative publicty that SDSU has gotten recently. ;D

SDsportsFan
01-02-2005, 05:59 PM
You are right, the professor might be able to win this case. Several years back a USD volleyball coach was fired from her coaching position after not winning a conference game for a couple of years. She was able to keep her job in the department of education. I remember thinking there was no way she would recover a dime, but somehow she was able to. If she was able to win her case then I have to think this professor has a chance. If you can't fire a coach for being a bad coach then the same rules might apply to professors.

Rabbitlivinginverm
01-28-2005, 09:53 AM
Seems this is gaining some momentum down south...

Staff editorial
USD should be careful not to appear corporate
By Editorial Board
Published: Wednesday, January 26, 2005
Article Tools: Page 1 of 1

The lawsuit filed by former physics professor Christopher Keating against the University of South Dakota will undoubtedly have a negative effect on the university. While all lawsuits can be financially and emotionally damaging, those that occur within an organization can be particularly painful.

As journalists, we have an obligation to remain objective on this matter. However, when Keating says that the University will "try to wear (him) down," it echoes a legitimate concern that many litigants who try to take on major establishments are forced to face. To sue a former employer is difficult, but when that employer has the power of a corporation at its disposal, the task becomes nearly insurmountable.

It's logical to use all of your resources when called into a legal conflict. We do not expect the university to offer a mediocre effort in an attempt to offer financial equilibrium to Keating. However, we understand and appreciate that Keating is entering the legal arena with resources that pale in comparison to the capabilities of USD.

It is up to a judge to decide what entity acted inappropriately. However, the university has an ethical responsibility to conduct themselves in an appropriate manner that allows for due process without financial domination. It is hoped that this suit will be resolved quickly. Should the university utilize their resources in an attempt to prolong the case until the point when Keating can no longer afford to continue, they will cease to appear as an educational institution and instead represent themselves as a corporate entity.

This is not an image that the University of South Dakota needs. Considering the amount of money invested to pique scholarly interest in the university, the portrayal of USD, Inc. would not only discourage prospective students and employees but cause resentment in present students while instilling a fear of the "higher-ups" within current employees.

Another article...
http://www.volanteonline.com/news/842005.html?mkey=635194

ckeating
02-18-2008, 09:11 AM
I'm surprised to see how much attention I got in this forum, especially considering it is supposed to be about SDSU athletics. I would like to set the record straight on a few things.

First, I was not fired for being a 'bad professor' as has been stated. My contract was non-renewed because I supposedly violated the civility clause of the collective bargaining agreement. This is a clause in faculty contracts that says everyone must be nice to each other.

My legal actions do not claim my privacy was violated. I have never made that complaint. What I am claiming are three things:

1) The civility clause is unconstitutional. The U.S. Supreme Court has been very clear about this and so-called speech codes have been routinely and regularly struck down by the courts as being unconstitutiona. In fact, I cannot find a single case where speech codes were not struck down.

2) Their action was unconstitutional because I made my comment in the privacy of my own home and on my own time on a Saturday morning. The government does not have the authority to regulate what people say in the privacy of their own homes and on their own time.

3) The true reason I was dismissed was in retaliation for a grievance I filed against Keller the previous fall (2003). I have a long list of events that began right after I filed the grievance showing retaliation. Evidence I have includes an email by Abbott where he calls for a meeting with the administration people to discuss 'how we're going to deal with Keating.'

As far as being a bad professor, this is simply not supported by the facts. Prior to my fall 2003 grievance against Keller, I was always rated as 'Exceeding Expectations'. Keller herself put in my performance evaluation that my student evaluations were among the highest of all physics professors in South Dakota. Other sources told me I was the single highest rated physics professor in South Dakota. Administration people told me several times that I was one of the most popular professors on campus. These comments came from the same people that were in the process of firing me, so they had no reason to say this if it wasn't true.

As for the 'A' student that hated me, all I can say is that I taught hundreds of students every semester. Not everyone is going to like you. On the other side of that argument are the dozens of notes and emails from students telling me I was the best professor they ever had. I would have former students come up to me while I was in town and tell me the same thing.

As for Christina Keller, I could say many things about her but I'll limit myself to what she said about herself, "The more people get to know me the less they like me." Everything I have seen confirms that she made an accurate assessment of herself.

These are the facts, whether you agree with my lawsuit or not.

Chris Keating

MilwaukeeJacksAlum
02-18-2008, 10:38 AM
I'm surprised to see how much attention I got in this forum, especially considering it is supposed to be about SDSU athletics.


I think it's a little odd you spent the time and energy to come on said forum to defend your lawsuit. I know nothing of the lawsuit and really don't have an opinion, but lots of things are discussed on this board beyond athletics. You happened to be one of them. File a lawsuit against one of the state's biggest universities and the subject will probably come up now and again.

filbert
02-18-2008, 11:44 AM
I'd suggest that if there is anything else that needs to be discussed regarding Prof. Keating's case, that a new thread be started, rather than continuing on this one. It's probably an issue that, if it needs further discussion at all, probably should not be in a smack forum.

I certainly don't begrudge Keating his post here, and am personally willing to let it be the more-or-less last word for now. On that basis I think I'll lock this thread.