View Full Version : What's wrong with Sue?

08-06-2005, 06:02 AM

New Mascot Rules
The NCAA is taking a firm stand against college nicknames such as Indians, Braves, and Warriors.

By KDLT Sports
USA - The NCAA has banned the use of American-Indian mascots deemed "hostile or abusive" by sports teams in postseason tournaments starting next February.The new rule also covers the use of nicknames and logos on uniforms and team clothing.

The NCAA said they do not have the authority to prevent schools from otherwise keeping their mascots and logos for regular season games.

The rule covers mascots, uniforms, clothing, and logos.

Currently more than two dozen colleges or universities have American-Indian-based nicknames, including the Fighting Sioux of the University of North Dakota.

The NCAA did not immediately specify which nicknames would fall onto the new list.

Looks like we need to help our old friends undII find a new nick-name? What's wrong with SUE?

08-06-2005, 07:40 AM
Flickertails. That's what they were before they became so horribly culturally insensitive.

08-06-2005, 11:44 AM
Flickertails. That's what they were before they became so horribly culturally insensitive.



Boy, I couldn't have made up anything that funny! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

So they went from flickertails to sue's? Maybe they will go back again?

Small Mammals of North Dakota

Richardson's Ground Squirrel

Spermophilus richardsonii


This squirrel is a burrowing mammal which prefers to inhabit sandy, well-drained soils of prairies and pastures throughout north and eastern North Dakota. Also known commonly as the "flickertail," it is buffy yellow in color with a light brown tail tinged with black. The ears are very short and appear as open slits in the side of its head.

Richardson ground squirrels could possibly be confused with the Franklin's ground squirrel which can also be found in eastern North Dakota. The Franklin's is similar in size but has a longer tail and is more grey in appearance.

Richardson ground squirrels are only active during daylight hours and dig their meandering burrows about 3 1/2 inches in diameter, 15-20 feet in length, and 4-5 feet below the surface. Each burrow has a mound of excavated dirt at the entrance where the animal can often be seen standing. The burrow leads to a spherical nesting chamber lined with grasses and straw. These ground squirrels are colonial and often burrows are only a few feet apart. Densities of up to 20 squirrels per acre are not uncommon in favorable habitat. I have to admit they are pretty dense in North Dakota!

Like other ground squirrels, the Richardson appears above-ground in the warm days of spring after hibernation. Breeding takes place within a few days after the female emerges. Young are born underground in late April to early May. By late May or early June, the 6-8 young come out of the burrow and begin to forage. Not more than one-fourth of juvenile females and males survive to see the next year. Adults rarely live more than three or four years.

A high death rate for the Richardson ground squirrel is contributed to a variety of factors. Many are eaten by predators during the period when young disperse to find new territories. However, this ground squirrel has many enemies even after it is established in a colony. Badgers excavate many burrows to find a meal, weasels and snakes are small enough to actually crawl in the burrow, and birds such as the eagles, hawks, and falcons take them unexpectedly from above.

The cheek pouches of this ground squirrel often contribute to its head looking larger in size in comparison to its body. I always wondered why their heads looks so big and their bodies so small! Seeds and available fruits are gathered in early spring and late summer to be eaten but are also stored for later use. When the plants of late spring emerge, they become the primary food source. The Richardson will also eat remains of dead animals (carrion). They sure won't eat any live ones!


08-07-2005, 05:21 AM
Resumption of the name flickertails seems to be the solution. But when you have several thousand die hard UND alums and fans who think otherwise, its not an acceptable change for them. Check out SiouxSports.com, they are grobing for loupholes for getting around the NCAA ruling.

Can you imagine someone telling us that Jackrabbits is no longer a suitable mascot? ???

08-07-2005, 08:08 AM
Resumption of the name flickertails seems to be the solution. But when you have several thousand die hard UND alums and fans who think otherwise, its not an acceptable change for them. Check out SiouxSports.com, they are grobing for loupholes for getting around the NCAA ruling.

Can you imagine someone telling us that Jackrabbits is no longer a suitable mascot? ???

Well, according to Scrappleface (http://www.scrappleface.com/MT/archives/002275.html), we're probably safe for the moment, although we may become the SDSU 930489394830394839493849504 at some point:

(2005-08-06) -- The National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) today said it would consider a proposal by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) to ban teams from using "hostile" animal mascots during its sports tournaments. The NCAA imposed a similar ban on teams with American Indian names this week.

"Hostile animal mascots reinforce species stereotypes," according to the PETA proposal. "When children see snarling lions, tigers and bears--even if they're just perky men wearing fur suits with gigantic foam heads--it creates prejudice against wild creatures which justifies continued discrimination and oppression. The emotional toll on these sentient beings is devastating."

An NCAA spokesman said the organization will also consider a resolution at its next meeting to eliminate team names and mascots altogether, and to identify each collegiate sports team by a randomly-generated 27-digit number.

(yes, Scrappleface is a satire site).

08-13-2005, 05:02 AM
Jeff Kolpeck of the Fargo Forum has an article on the new AD at UND. Thought this would kind give you an idea of whats going on at UND. Also the long time alum-foundation guy at UND Earl Striden was on KFGO show News and views. Earl was once Majority leader in the ND legislature. He left no doubt about how he feels about the NCAA and the logo issue.


Nickname rule will keep AD busy
By Jeff Kolpack, The Forum
Published Saturday, August 13, 2005
· advertisement ·
GRAND FORKS, N.D. – A scaled down North Central Conference. The Division I issue. And now, for Tom Buning, a nickname fire storm.

The new University of North Dakota athletic director, who came from Army in West Point, N.Y., will have to do more before 6 a.m. than most athletic directors do all day.

“The key thing about this is you really have to fight it,” he said. “To not fight it is saying that somehow we were wrong. I don’t think a university as great as this, the alumni, would put up with something so wrong.”

The NCAA Executive Committee’s decision to ban references to American Indians on school uniforms and prohibit teams from hosting postseason competition could have immediate impacts on Buning’s department. The ban goes into effect Feb. 1, 2006.

Buning assumed his position on July 1 – about eight months after UND sent the Big Sky Conference a letter of interest and two months after the seven-member North Central Conference announced it was actively seeking new schools.

Now comes the nickname issue, which has been a hot topic with alumni. Lawyers who are UND graduates have offered their legal services for free to research the case and find previous court rulings that could help UND’s cause.

“We’re not that perfect,” Buning said of the nickname. “But we’re not that wrong.”

The impact, Buning said, would be more of a burden for smaller schools because of the cost it would take to change a nickname.

The UND men’s and women’s basketball teams would not be able to host a regional tournament – a financial benefit to the Sioux – and would have to discard any American Indian logo or insignia on their uniforms. The Sioux men’s hockey team, with the Indian head logo dominating the front of its jerseys, would have to get new tops altogether.

Buning said he’s already preparing for new apparel if the situation arises. The Sioux women’s soccer teams are getting new uniforms, but that’s because it was time to renew anyway, Buning said.

He said the lead time in ordering new uniforms can be anywhere from two weeks to six months depending on what distributors have in stock. But he also doesn’t expect the situation to get that far.

“I feel extremely comfortable we’ll get an injunction in order to get the clarification that we need,” he said.

Readers can reach Forum reporter Jeff Kolpack at (701) 241-5546

08-13-2005, 05:11 AM
opps, I overlooked the Forums article on the Pres of UND.


UND plans nickname ban fight
By Jeff Kolpack, The Forum
Published Saturday, August 13, 2005

GRAND FORKS, N.D. – The Fighting Sioux are fighting back.

University of North Dakota President Charles Kupchella on Friday took the first shot in what is shaping up to be a heated battle with the NCAA.

He said the school plans on appealing an NCAA decision that prohibits teams with American Indian nicknames it deems hostile and abusive from hosting post-season tournaments.

Kupchella said it could evolve into legal action against the NCAA.

In an open letter to the NCAA, Kupchella not only asks for a clarification on terms like “hostile and abusive” but also addresses nicknames of other schools like the Notre Dame Fighting Irish and the “out of control financial arms race” of college athletics.

Kupchella speaks
Talk: What do you think of the NCAA's decision to ban Indian mascots and nicknames from postseason events?
“We take some shots at the NCAA in here because doggone it, it made us mad to be called hostile and abusive,” Kupchella said.

The NCAA Executive Committee last week identified 18 schools that use material deemed offensive to American Indians. It was a multi-faceted decision that included athletic uniforms and logos in athletic facilities.

“We want to file an appeal, but first we need to make sense of what the NCAA is doing,” Kupchella said.

“I think there is some invulnerability here.”

Although Kupchella said he isn’t clear on the timeline of the appeal process, it appears the university needs to address its concerns to the Executive Committee Subcommittee on Gender and Diversity Issues prior to Feb. 1, according to an Aug. 9 letter from NCAA President Myles Brand to Kupchella.

Brand’s letter indicates the subcommittee could then forward a decision to the “appropriate divisional presidential body” before reaching the Executive Committee.

“I find it problematic the same group that came up with this ruling would be the same group that would hear this appeal,” Kupchella said. “Somehow, that doesn’t seem like it would do much good.”

The NCAA Executive Committee and the divisional presidents have meetings scheduled for Oct. 27 and Jan. 9.

Joely De La Torre, associate professor of public administration at California State University, San Bernardino, and president of an American Indian public relations agency, said Florida State is the only school to her knowledge that is planning an appeal.

She doesn’t think many more will follow.

“I guess one would have to ask: What is the purpose of continuing to offend American Indians?” she said Friday. “If we say it’s derogatory, who better to know than the victim here. If it’s offensive, it is offensive. I don’t know why they continue to offend. It’s absurd.”

UND’s process, Kupchella said, would likely involve the university’s general counsel, the legal counsel for the North Dakota Higher Board of Education and the North Dakota attorney general.

Asked if the university is going to hire an outside attorney, Kupchella said the school is bound by “certain rules” pertaining to the process.

“It’s pretty complicated because of the public nature of the institution,” he said.

He said UND has not contacted any of the other 17 schools targeted by the NCAA’s decision. The NCAA’s decision goes into effect Feb. 1, which would directly affect the Division I West Regional hockey tournament at Ralph Engelstad Arena. Kupchella put to rest a mind-boggling question: How will UND cover up the thousands of logos in the arena as mandated by the NCAA decision?

It won’t.

“I can’t even fathom asking the Engelstad Arena to do that,” he said. “It’s not about the physical impossibility, but just because it would imply all kinds of things were are not willing to be implied.”

Readers can reach Forum reporter Jeff Kolpack at (701) 241-5546

08-13-2005, 11:27 PM
Great to see UND putting up a good fight over this ridiculous issue. State fans (anybody for that matter) should stand firmly behind our once proud (and most likely future) rivals. Be careful what causes one chooses to condemn, one's favorite might be next. Imagine someone taking PETA seriously and then the Jacks are on the chopping block.

In 1991, Eastern Michigan University abandoned their longtime Huron mascot for the harmless Eagles. Despite a letter to the editor in the Ann Arbor News by a Huron tribal chief in support of the Huron, EMU caved in to the pressure (yes, it is political correctness--otherwise known as suppression of free speech). Alumni went ballistic to no avail. Donations fell. Re: Mr. Englestad. If you write the check, you call the shots. It is refreshing to see some backbone in this situation.

08-14-2005, 04:48 AM

What complicates the matter here is Mr. Englestad died of cancer maybe two years ago, not sure. So now its about what his estate planning documents state relating to gift and maintaining the logo. The fear of UND losing the REA Ice Arena over the logo issue came up on the radio program on Friday. Mr. Striden, the long UND Alum guy said UND was not in danger of losing the REA Ice arena over the logo issue. There are people in ND who are saying this might happen.

Its nice to be generous, but do you have the right to tell the adminstration how to operate the institution? The Ice Arena sits on State property but the arena itself is still in the name of a Ralph Englestad corporation and basically ran from Las Vegas. The institution has yet to take title to the facility.

If UND gets caught up in a costly law suit over the logo, it makes me wonder if they will have the resources to even consider D1. It will certainly be a test of loyality for all alums who have a sense of pride and generosity.

I dont have a dog in this fight so see no need to defend UND or the NCAA. It is however an interesting issue to follow.

08-14-2005, 09:25 AM
The NCAA is overstepping its boundaries once again. Of all the things wrong with the way Native Americans are treated in this country, athletic mascots are the least of the problem.

08-19-2005, 04:30 AM
Argus story on the topic


Nickname debate brought to forefront once again

Published: 08/19/05

The debate over Native American nicknames for sports teams was rekindled recently by the NCAA, a normally stodgy outfit that uncharacteristically finds itself out on the edge this time.

The association is putting some muscle behind an attempt to make schools with Native American nicknames be much more conscious of the imagery they're projecting.

When the NCAA announced that there were 18 schools whose nicknames, logos or mascots were considered hostile and abusive, the organization pledged to ban these nicknames' use, along with the logos and mascots, at postseason events. In addition, the schools whose nicknames had been cited would not be able to host postseason contests.

NCAA president Myles Brand was quick to point out that each school has the option to appeal, but the announcement nevertheless got the nickname debate cooking in earnest again.

"It's a tough issue for people to deal with," said Marcia Zephier, a Roosevelt High School teacher who is an enrolled member of the Cheyenne River Tribe. "I was kind of surprised the NCAA did something about it. I thought maybe it would go away. I was glad that it didn't."

It is an issue that has strong proponents on each side, even among Native Americans.

What further intensifies it is that even a proclaimed indifference to the issue could be construed as begging an argument. For instance, if one were to maintain nicknames are trivial to begin with and not worthy of this level of scrutiny, then why not just change them to something more universally acceptable and put the topic to rest?

Conversely, if a school maintains that a nickname is an important part of a cherished tradition and worth fighting for, does it not also demonstrate that folks thinking the other way have cause to feel strongly as well?

And, at the core of the issue: Who gets to say what is offensive and what is not in these situations; the institution carrying the nickname, or the people who take offense?

Most prominently, national public debate has been focused on the Florida State Seminoles, who are one of the 18 schools cited by the NCAA.

The school's regents, in addition to Gov. Jeb Bush, state lawmakers and the Seminole Tribe of Florida's Tribal Council, have said they disagree with the ban and will fight it.

The Florida State administration says it has made a great effort to insure the nickname and its mascot, Chief Osceola, do honor to the tribe. In doing so, the school has demonstrated that dialogue can go far - though certainly not far enough in the eyes of some - in resolving the issue, at least regionally.

The South Dakota State Activities Association has no rules regarding mascots and logos, but at Watertown High School, the Arrows have made adjustments because of outside pressure.

The high school annually has a homecoming ceremony called Ki-Yi, which re-tells a mythical story regarding two fictitious tribes who unite and become stronger after battling for land around Lake Kampeska. Four years ago, with threats of a lawsuit looming, the school eliminated all headdresses and feathers from the event, and quit crossing arms as part of the ceremony.

"We sat down with Native Americans and made some adjustments that satisfied them," athletic director Doug Schooley said. "The last few years, it hasn't been much of an issue."

There are still those who would find parts of the ceremony offensive, with its barefoot students, buckskin outfits and headbands, but the school feels the changes helps the situation greatly.

"The nickname 'Arrows' itself is not totally a Native American symbol," Schooley said. "But the Ki-Yi legend obviously does have a Native American theme."

Zephier has often addressed the issue of nicknames with students in her Native American studies class. It's a lively discussion topic.

"I don't think some people understand that it's not necessarily the name, it's everything that goes along with it," Zephier said. "The tradition, the ceremony - the whole image of the American Indian is being exploited in some cases."

It's a distinction the NCAA has tried to make by not singling out every school with a Native American nickname, instead concentrating on the ones - in the estimation of the NCAA - that project a hostile and abusive image.

Of particular concern to Zephier is the University of Illinois Illinis' mascot, Chief Illiniwek.

"There are things he does that are in no way representation of who Indian people really are," Zephier said. "They mock our traditions and ceremonies. Whether or not you think that you're honoring us or not is beside the point."

What some regard as political correctness gone wild, Zephier calls common sense and civility.

"If you knew what you were doing was offending someone, why would you continue to do it?" she asked. "How can you ever justify offending some people in a situation like this? I think it's particularly injurious to kids. They see images of crazy people dressed up in chicken feathers and they think it's all accurate."

08-21-2005, 06:44 AM
Here are my top ten replacement names for the North Dakota Sue (if they decide not to use the "flickertails")

1. Anteaters

2. Banana Slugs

3. Dirtbags

4. Flying Queens

5. Gobblers

6. Horned Frogs

7. Hustlin' Quakers

8. Keel Haulers

9. White Mules

10. NADS

Each is used only once so far (can you imagine that). # 10 is my personal favorite for undII. Go Nads! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


08-26-2005, 11:09 PM
Interesting piece on the UND Sioux brouhaha: